Double Stop

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jervi
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Double Stop

Post by jervi »

Saw this yesterday
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.33992 ... 312!8i6656
Very strange combination of road markings that I don't feel are enforceable.
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JohnnyMo
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Re: Double Stop

Post by JohnnyMo »

Probably are enforceable esp the mandatory stops from Grange Lane, and joining the High St. Where there is ambiguity would be if if there was a crash between a car from Grange Lane & another from Church Lane.
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Vierwielen
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Vierwielen »

An extension to this type of scheme is the "4-way stop" which is common in South Africa and I believe, in the States. The rule in South Africa is that you have to stop and then the first person to have stopped proceeds. When my aunt came out from the UK for a visit to SA, the roads in this picture were all single lane and she was most astonished when my father came to a total halt at the "stop" sign even though there was no other vehicle in sight.

Of course, a roundabout could easily have been built here (plenty of land), but that might require a little too much intelligence on the part of either the Apartheid-era government or the post-Apartheid government.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Chris5156 »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 22:31An extension to this type of scheme is the "4-way stop" which is common in South Africa and I believe, in the States. The rule in South Africa is that you have to stop and then the first person to have stopped proceeds. When my aunt came out from the UK for a visit to SA, the roads in this picture were all single lane and she was most astonished when my father came to a total halt at the "stop" sign even though there was no other vehicle in sight.

Of course, a roundabout could easily have been built here (plenty of land), but that might require a little too much intelligence on the part of either the Apartheid-era government or the post-Apartheid government.
Looking around the junction, I see lots of signs on the approach that say "HIGH ACCIDENT ZONE". I'm not at all surprised! What a ridiculous way to control a junction with multiple lanes on all approaches.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by WHBM »

To me many US Stop signs require a double stop anyway, as they set the stop line too far back. Hence my common expression when I am over there, "once to comply" [at the stop line] "and once for visibility" [when I can actually see up and down the main road].
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Vierwielen
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 00:55
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 22:31An extension to this type of scheme is the "4-way stop" which is common in South Africa and I believe, in the States. The rule in South Africa is that you have to stop and then the first person to have stopped proceeds. When my aunt came out from the UK for a visit to SA, the roads in this picture were all single lane and she was most astonished when my father came to a total halt at the "stop" sign even though there was no other vehicle in sight.

Of course, a roundabout could easily have been built here (plenty of land), but that might require a little too much intelligence on the part of either the Apartheid-era government or the post-Apartheid government.
Looking around the junction, I see lots of signs on the approach that say "HIGH ACCIDENT ZONE". I'm not at all surprised! What a ridiculous way to control a junction with multiple lanes on all approaches.
There is more than enough land to put a roundabout twice the size to the M40 J1 roundabout. They would not put traffic lights there because there seems ot be an aversion in South Africa to having automated safety features. As an example, at the level crossing close to where my parents lived a man was employed to sit there all day with a red flag to stop traffic when a train came (maybe once an hour). Eventually it became too expensive to keep him on, so it became an unguarded level crossing, well sign-posted with clear visibility in both directions (provided that you stopped). In the UK that woudl have been an ideal candidate for a controlled level crossing, but afte a few fatal accidents, the South Africans built a flyover (which coud not develop mechanical problems).
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Britain
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Britain »

jervi wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:32 Saw this yesterday
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.33992 ... 312!8i6656
Very strange combination of road markings that I don't feel are enforceable.
That whole little bit is an entire mess. The first stop line makes no sense as you can't see anything from it anyway, the second one doesn't have a sign, the give way lines are in an awkward place, both the first stop line and the give way lines make those roads look like one-way roads when they're not. What a mess.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by SteelCamel »

Britain wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 07:46
jervi wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:32 Saw this yesterday
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.33992 ... 312!8i6656
Very strange combination of road markings that I don't feel are enforceable.
That whole little bit is an entire mess. The first stop line makes no sense as you can't see anything from it anyway, the second one doesn't have a sign, the give way lines are in an awkward place, both the first stop line and the give way lines make those roads look like one-way roads when they're not. What a mess.
There is some logic to it. The first line requires traffic coming out of Grange Lane to stop and give way to traffic entering Church Lane from High St - though it's not clear who has priority if traffic is exiting Church Lane, as there's a Give Way line on Church Lane too. The second requires traffic exiting Grange Lane and Church Lane to stop and give way to traffic on High St.

I agree it's a mess though. If it was up to me, I'd hatch out the "deceleration lane" and put a block of hatching between Church Lane and Grange Lane so they formed two separate junctions with High St. Or even make Grange Lane one-way away from the junction (the other end joins High St no great distance away), then the blind corner isn't an issue.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by pjr10th »

In a similar fashion, the double give way line.
Screenshot_20220830-203326_Photos-min.png
This recent installation on the A4 of Jersey features a normal Jersey give way line further back and in addition a UK-style give way line at the normal position.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iBnU2SQC5WBAPsU2A

This junction as well has a double give way on two approaches.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Lockwood »

rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg
That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Dougman »

Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Bryn666 »

Dougman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 08:48
Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31
Dougman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 08:48
Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg
That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
If a backing board is *really* needed then STOP and Give Way signs need to be mounted proud of the board so that the shape remains obvious in snow.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by SteelCamel »

Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
The important bit is the "and", though. The sign gives two instructions. You must stop at the line, even if the way is clear. But it also denies you priority, and that's not just at the line.
Presumably the line is so far back so that you stop before coming into conflict with pedestrians (that you can't see because of the walls). Having stopped, you can start moving, but must still give way - which might mean stopping again, possibly more than once.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Lockwood »

So you stop, then edge forwards because there are no pedestrians in front of you, and you stop to give way to the traffic that has just been released from the nearby pelican.
You are still sat there blocking the foot path.

Having lost a mark on a signs test for answering "Stop" instead of "Stop and give way", that's one that's been burned into my head!
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Dougman »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31
Dougman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 08:48
Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
Because the people who do these sort of things shouldn't be designing signs. Or they could just RTFM!
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Fenlander »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31
Dougman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 08:48
Lockwood wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 21:46 rsz_screenshot_2022-08-30-21-39-52-94_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

That one in Petersfield could do with a second line...
Stop and give way - you stop and all you can see to each side is wall.
*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
Internally illuminated circular STOP sign!. This one, and the one across the junction, sit on east/west alignments so at certain times of the year you can only really see the shape and not the sign due to the sun being immediately behind them.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Bryn666 »

Fenlander wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31
Dougman wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 08:48

*pulls hair out looking at stop sign on a backing board*
Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
Internally illuminated circular STOP sign!. This one, and the one across the junction, sit on east/west alignments so at certain times of the year you can only really see the shape and not the sign due to the sun being immediately behind them.
That's really inexplicable as octagonal backlit boxes exist, from the same manufacturer.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Fenlander »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:46
Fenlander wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31

Why do people insist on backing boards on the two specifically shaped for a reason signs? It drives me nuts too.
Internally illuminated circular STOP sign!. This one, and the one across the junction, sit on east/west alignments so at certain times of the year you can only really see the shape and not the sign due to the sun being immediately behind them.
That's really inexplicable as octagonal backlit boxes exist, from the same manufacturer.
Lincolnshire CC does like its oddities, there's a backlit 50 back to back with an external lit 30 with bonus backboard & flashing lights. I'm just trying to remember where I've seen a GIVE WAY in a round backlit too.
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Re: Double Stop

Post by Bryn666 »

Fenlander wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 14:05
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:46
Fenlander wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19 Internally illuminated circular STOP sign!. This one, and the one across the junction, sit on east/west alignments so at certain times of the year you can only really see the shape and not the sign due to the sun being immediately behind them.
That's really inexplicable as octagonal backlit boxes exist, from the same manufacturer.
Lincolnshire CC does like its oddities, there's a backlit 50 back to back with an external lit 30 with bonus backboard & flashing lights. I'm just trying to remember where I've seen a GIVE WAY in a round backlit too.
I've seen post top Give Way signs back to back with a No Entry using the same light source (so double sided backlit), that's still a bit naff but it's better than the rounded Stop sign!
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