Strange "No Parking" signs

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Keiji
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Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Keiji »

There's some signs here, near Newton Abbot, saying "No Parking" in words, with small text above saying "Devon County Council".

There's a matching pair facing the other way, and the same the other side of the hump-back bridge, so eight in all.

I've also just spotted one with an arrow on it, presumably indicating the boundary, partially hidden in the bushes here, so I suppose there are probably three more of those, too.

I can only wonder... why couldn't they just paint some double yellows and be done with it?

As it's a (barely) rural location, are they even necessary? There's plenty of similar roads and hump-back bridges without any parking restrictions (standard or otherwise) and you don't find people parking all over them. Perhaps due to the café and the entrance to the walking/cycle trail nearby, but the signs seem very old and I'm pretty sure that before a few years ago it was only a walking trail - so I doubt they had trouble with masses of people parking there to go for a walk...

Are these legally enforceable?

Has anyone seen signs like this on a public road elsewhere?
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Vierwielen »

Je ne parle pas anglais, mais je comprends la lettre "P" avec une ligne.

Ich spreche kein Englisch, aber ich verstehe den Buchstaben "P" mit einer Linie durch.

Ik spreek geen Engels, maar ik begrijp de letter "P" met een streep erdoor.

No hablo inglés, pero entiendo la letra "P" con una línea que la atraviesa.

Non Anglis loqui, sed intelligere, in epistula "P" in linea cum eo.
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jervi
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by jervi »

Keiji wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 13:16 There's some signs here, near Newton Abbot, saying "No Parking" in words, with small text above saying "Devon County Council".

There's a matching pair facing the other way, and the same the other side of the hump-back bridge, so eight in all.

I've also just spotted one with an arrow on it, presumably indicating the boundary, partially hidden in the bushes here, so I suppose there are probably three more of those, too.

I can only wonder... why couldn't they just paint some double yellows and be done with it?

As it's a (barely) rural location, are they even necessary? There's plenty of similar roads and hump-back bridges without any parking restrictions (standard or otherwise) and you don't find people parking all over them. Perhaps due to the café and the entrance to the walking/cycle trail nearby, but the signs seem very old and I'm pretty sure that before a few years ago it was only a walking trail - so I doubt they had trouble with masses of people parking there to go for a walk...

Are these legally enforceable?

Has anyone seen signs like this on a public road elsewhere?
They aren't legally enforceable, it is likely there were numerous close calls or incidents there due to cars being parked so the council decided to put these signs up so it looks like they have done something, however in reality they ought to make a TRO (traffic restriction order) to prevent parking, or alternatively make that section of road a rural clearway.

However just because the signs aren't legally enforceable, it may still be an offence to park there or be at fault if an incident did occur if bridge blocks sight of the vehicle. Or parked during low light / hours of darkness since its unlit & not <30mph.

Also may I suggest this thread is moved to the street furniture forum.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Bryn666 »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:00 Je ne parle pas anglais, mais je comprends la lettre "P" avec une ligne.

Ich spreche kein Englisch, aber ich verstehe den Buchstaben "P" mit einer Linie durch.

Ik spreek geen Engels, maar ik begrijp de letter "P" met een streep erdoor.

No hablo inglés, pero entiendo la letra "P" con una línea que la atraviesa.

Non Anglis loqui, sed intelligere, in epistula "P" in linea cum eo.
We already have a sign for no waiting as well as one for no stopping. This is a local authority not being bothered to do a TRO.

I don't know any other industry that would tolerate such sloppy standards.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by nick_dunn »

There were multiple 'no parking' signs on both sides of a staggered junction on the A451 for as long as I can remember. However it looks like only this pair now survive. Years ago the hatched areas and part of the grass formed quite wide slip lanes, so it possibly looked like an attractive picnic area to the 1960s motorist! The junction is much safer now in its current form so I don't know why these two signs remain.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Keiji »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:00 I don't speak English, but I understand a letter "P" with a line through it.
You don't need to speak English to understand double yellows either, which I suggested in the OP, rather than creating a (different) non-prescribed sign.
jervi wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:11They aren't legally enforceable, it is likely there were numerous close calls or incidents there due to cars being parked so the council decided to put these signs up so it looks like they have done something, however in reality they ought to make a TRO (traffic restriction order) to prevent parking, or alternatively make that section of road a rural clearway.
It makes sense that they may have added the signs around the bridge because people parking there caused accidents - certainly the hump does hide oncoming traffic so it would hide parked cars too. The puzzle to me is why it would have ever come up - i.e. why anyone would have ever wanted to park there in the first place!

That said I suppose it might only take one incident, if it's bad enough, to cause the council to want to be seen to be doing something about it.
jervi wrote:However just because the signs aren't legally enforceable, it may still be an offence to park there or be at fault if an incident did occur if bridge blocks sight of the vehicle. Or parked during low light / hours of darkness since its unlit & not <30mph.
This actually has me wondering now. Who should be at fault if a vehicle being driven over a hump-back bridge collides with a stationary vehicle immediately after it, that they couldn't see before. Yes, it's a silly place to stop, but the driver going over the bridge should know to look out for hidden obstructions and drive slowly enough to be able to stop if one is suddenly revealed. What if, for example, it wasn't a stationary vehicle but instead a very slow cyclist, or a horse, or even a large wild animal? Surely the normal rule of "if you drive straight into the vehicle in front it's your fault" would still apply, regardless of any no parking signs?
nick_dunn wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:17 There were multiple 'no parking' signs on both sides of a staggered junction on the A451 for as long as I can remember. However it looks like only this pair now survive. Years ago the hatched areas and part of the grass formed quite wide slip lanes, so it possibly looked like an attractive picnic area to the 1960s motorist! The junction is much safer now in its current form so I don't know why these two signs remain.
Interesting. I would have expected this to be made a clearway if people stopping was a problem. As it is, I'd argue it looks just as attractive a stopping point today, if you don't mind going over the solid edge line! (Is driving over a solid edge line to park, when the road is not a clearway or motorway or has any other such signed restriction, actually illegal - or should I say any more illegal than parking on a grass verge or pavement, which I'm sure the majority of us do from time to time?)

Also, would I be right to assume the junction was a non-staggered crossroads at the time when the "no parking" signs were put in?
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by nick_dunn »

Keiji wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 18:08 Also, would I be right to assume the junction was a non-staggered crossroads at the time when the "no parking" signs were put in?
I can't be sure as it was a bit before my time! I've checked on Sabre Maps from the 1950s and the junction historically looked like this , which I previously didn't know. I'd guess the change to a staggered junction with long slips probably came in the early 1960s and the no parking signs arrived at the same time - I can't remember them not being there.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by jervi »

Keiji wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 18:08 Interesting. I would have expected this to be made a clearway if people stopping was a problem. As it is, I'd argue it looks just as attractive a stopping point today, if you don't mind going over the solid edge line! (Is driving over a solid edge line to park, when the road is not a clearway or motorway or has any other such signed restriction, actually illegal - or should I say any more illegal than parking on a grass verge or pavement, which I'm sure the majority of us do from time to time?)
As far as I am aware, these are places where it is illegal to park:
Motorway - anywhere within the boundary including grass verges
Clearway - anywhere within the edge of carriageway marking (or kerb/edge of road if absent)*. Parking on grass verges or hardshoulder/strip is allowed as long as not blocking visibility.
Urban Clearway (inc single/double yellow/red) - anywhere within the highway boundary on that side of the road including pavements & grass verges.*
Verge/Footway Parking prohibition - illegal to have any part of the vehicle off the main carriageway.*
Correctly signed bus stop, taxi ranks & restricted parking bays. If it is missing an upright sign, its free real estate.
* = excludes marked parking spaces / laybys

So if a dual carriageway has shoulder (for example the old A41(M) or the A1139) then presuming are you not affecting visibility, it is legal. Likewise any roads with no stopping restrictions, it is legal to park on them presuming you do not block traffic. Also there is a law about parking on unlit roads (over 30mph) in hours of darkness, but not very clued up on that as it has never affected me.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by ManomayLR »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:00 Je ne parle pas anglais, mais je comprends la lettre "P" avec une ligne.

Ich spreche kein Englisch, aber ich verstehe den Buchstaben "P" mit einer Linie durch.

Ik spreek geen Engels, maar ik begrijp de letter "P" met een streep erdoor.

No hablo inglés, pero entiendo la letra "P" con una línea que la atraviesa.

Non Anglis loqui, sed intelligere, in epistula "P" in linea cum eo.
Let me guess - this was Google translated.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Conekicker »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:00 Je ne parle pas anglais, mais je comprends la lettre "P" avec une ligne.

Ich spreche kein Englisch, aber ich verstehe den Buchstaben "P" mit einer Linie durch.

Ik spreek geen Engels, maar ik begrijp de letter "P" met een streep erdoor.

No hablo inglés, pero entiendo la letra "P" con una línea que la atraviesa.

Non Anglis loqui, sed intelligere, in epistula "P" in linea cum eo.
As intuitive as such a sign is, I'm pretty sure it isn't in the Vienna Convention. Does any nation use that sign?
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by FosseWay »

Keiji wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 18:08 This actually has me wondering now. Who should be at fault if a vehicle being driven over a hump-back bridge collides with a stationary vehicle immediately after it, that they couldn't see before. Yes, it's a silly place to stop, but the driver going over the bridge should know to look out for hidden obstructions and drive slowly enough to be able to stop if one is suddenly revealed. What if, for example, it wasn't a stationary vehicle but instead a very slow cyclist, or a horse, or even a large wild animal? Surely the normal rule of "if you drive straight into the vehicle in front it's your fault" would still apply, regardless of any no parking signs?
You're asking the wrong question :wink:

If you've got to the stage of asking whose fault an accident is, then the accident has already taken place. If you can do something that removes part of the chain of events that cause the accident, regardless of fault, then the accident won't happen. Think of an arsonist: the person who actually sets fire to the rubbish round the back of Tesco's is at fault, but Tesco can solve the problem before it occurs by removing the rubbish. That doesn't make them any more responsible for the arson if for whatever reason the rubbish happens to be there when the arsonist strikes, but it reduces the risk overall.

So the question is: Can the council do something that is quick, cheap and doesn't look ugly, while reducing the risk that dozy drivers collide with parked vehicles? Yes, it would seem, in this case - get people not to park there. Personally I don't care one way or the other whether there's a TRO; as said, we're not principally addressing how to deal with malefactors after the event, but rather dissuading them from behaving undesirably at all. I agree that trying to fine someone for parking where there is no standard no parking signage and no TRO is unacceptable. But if you achieve your end - no parking in a dangerous/obstructive location - without actually needing to fine someone, where's the problem?
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Conekicker »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 06:22
Keiji wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 18:08 This actually has me wondering now. Who should be at fault if a vehicle being driven over a hump-back bridge collides with a stationary vehicle immediately after it, that they couldn't see before. Yes, it's a silly place to stop, but the driver going over the bridge should know to look out for hidden obstructions and drive slowly enough to be able to stop if one is suddenly revealed. What if, for example, it wasn't a stationary vehicle but instead a very slow cyclist, or a horse, or even a large wild animal? Surely the normal rule of "if you drive straight into the vehicle in front it's your fault" would still apply, regardless of any no parking signs?
You're asking the wrong question :wink:

If you've got to the stage of asking whose fault an accident is, then the accident has already taken place. If you can do something that removes part of the chain of events that cause the accident, regardless of fault, then the accident won't happen. Think of an arsonist: the person who actually sets fire to the rubbish round the back of Tesco's is at fault, but Tesco can solve the problem before it occurs by removing the rubbish. That doesn't make them any more responsible for the arson if for whatever reason the rubbish happens to be there when the arsonist strikes, but it reduces the risk overall.

So the question is: Can the council do something that is quick, cheap and doesn't look ugly, while reducing the risk that dozy drivers collide with parked vehicles? Yes, it would seem, in this case - get people not to park there. Personally I don't care one way or the other whether there's a TRO; as said, we're not principally addressing how to deal with malefactors after the event, but rather dissuading them from behaving undesirably at all. I agree that trying to fine someone for parking where there is no standard no parking signage and no TRO is unacceptable. But if you achieve your end - no parking in a dangerous/obstructive location - without actually needing to fine someone, where's the problem?
I can assure you an emergency TRO can be made very quickly and no parking cones dropped out far, far quicker than it will have taken to design, produce and install those signs.

Edit: That's assuming DCC know what they are doing, which based on the evidence, seems more than a little questionable.
Last edited by Conekicker on Tue Nov 03, 2020 15:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Vierwielen »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 22:06
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:00 Je ne parle pas anglais, mais je comprends la lettre "P" avec une ligne.

Ich spreche kein Englisch, aber ich verstehe den Buchstaben "P" mit einer Linie durch.

Ik spreek geen Engels, maar ik begrijp de letter "P" met een streep erdoor.

No hablo inglés, pero entiendo la letra "P" con una línea que la atraviesa.

Non Anglis loqui, sed intelligere, in epistula "P" in linea cum eo.
Let me guess - this was Google translated.
Miskien het ek Google gebruik, maar aangesien dat hierdie sin in Afrikaans geskryf is, is dit nie nodig dat ek Google gebruik nie.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by the cheesecake man »

jervi wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 15:11 They aren't legally enforceable, it is likely there were numerous close calls or incidents there due to cars being parked ...
A similar idea here , although with two differences:
  • although these signs aren't themselves enforceable they are a reminder of an actual restriction not merely advisory
  • they actually seemed to work
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Similar thing at this level crossing too
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by jervi »

NGL, I didn't know it was an offence to park where there is a solid line (makes sense though), surly this doesn't apply if you are parked beyond the edge of carriageway line, for example on the footway / verge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99908 ... 312!8i6656 , I wonder how enforceable these are.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Conekicker »

jervi wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 23:21 NGL, I didn't know it was an offence to park where there is a solid line (makes sense though), surly this doesn't apply if you are parked beyond the edge of carriageway line, for example on the footway / verge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99908 ... 312!8i6656 , I wonder how enforceable these are.
Given that the majority, if not all, of the reflecting road studs legally required to be present within such a lining system are defective, coupled with how badly worn the lines themselves are, not at all enforceable. There are also visibility criteria for using these lines, which I doubt are met at this site. It also appears to be a quiet country lane cul de sac, so quite why overtaking needs to be prohibited given the likely very low traffic levels is perverse to say the least.

Perhaps at one time the road used to connect to Isaac's Lane to the south and was a through route carrying substantial traffic, that might explain the presence of these obviously very old and ill-maintained lines/studs.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by jervi »

Conekicker wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 09:38
jervi wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 23:21 NGL, I didn't know it was an offence to park where there is a solid line (makes sense though), surly this doesn't apply if you are parked beyond the edge of carriageway line, for example on the footway / verge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99908 ... 312!8i6656 , I wonder how enforceable these are.
Given that the majority, if not all, of the reflecting road studs legally required to be present within such a lining system are defective, coupled with how badly worn the lines themselves are, not at all enforceable. There are also visibility criteria for using these lines, which I doubt are met at this site. It also appears to be a quiet country lane cul de sac, so quite why overtaking needs to be prohibited given the likely very low traffic levels is perverse to say the least.

Perhaps at one time the road used to connect to Isaac's Lane to the south and was a through route carrying substantial traffic, that might explain the presence of these obviously very old and ill-maintained lines/studs.
I suppose that having defective studs makes it not legally conforming.
Yeah, used to be the A273 until 23 years ago.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Conekicker »

jervi wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:26
Conekicker wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 09:38
jervi wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 23:21 NGL, I didn't know it was an offence to park where there is a solid line (makes sense though), surly this doesn't apply if you are parked beyond the edge of carriageway line, for example on the footway / verge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99908 ... 312!8i6656 , I wonder how enforceable these are.
Given that the majority, if not all, of the reflecting road studs legally required to be present within such a lining system are defective, coupled with how badly worn the lines themselves are, not at all enforceable. There are also visibility criteria for using these lines, which I doubt are met at this site. It also appears to be a quiet country lane cul de sac, so quite why overtaking needs to be prohibited given the likely very low traffic levels is perverse to say the least.

Perhaps at one time the road used to connect to Isaac's Lane to the south and was a through route carrying substantial traffic, that might explain the presence of these obviously very old and ill-maintained lines/studs.
I suppose that having defective studs makes it not legally conforming.
Yeah, used to be the A273 until 23 years ago.
There's the answer as to why the road has a DWL on it. Doesn't look like it's had a stick of work done to it since.
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Re: Strange "No Parking" signs

Post by Britain »

jervi wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 23:21 NGL, I didn't know it was an offence to park where there is a solid line (makes sense though), surly this doesn't apply if you are parked beyond the edge of carriageway line, for example on the footway / verge.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.99908 ... 312!8i6656 , I wonder how enforceable these are.
There are commonly vans parked along a solid centre line road I travel on often.
Example 1
Example 2

In example 2, I wonder if you could still get done for parking there considering the centre line isn't actually solid to allow a turn lane.
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