Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
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Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Hi. I am seeking help from you knowledgeable people before there is a major collision at a traffic signal controlled crossroads near me. On the major road (the A30 London Road Camberley) right turns into Knoll Road and Kings Ride are controlled under separate signal heads having green right turn arrows. However, on numerous occasions I have witnessed near misses where road users wanting to proceed straight ahead along the A30 have seen a green right turn arrow illuminate and have moved straight ahead, directly into the path of vehicles legitimately turning right.
Is there some form of additional signage that could be added to the right turn signals (including the repeater signals on the far side of the junction) to reinforce the fact that the right turn green arrow applies to right turns only?
Hopefully the following link will evidence what I mean: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3402071 ... 384!8i8192
Many thanks in anticipation of some knowledgeable responses!
Is there some form of additional signage that could be added to the right turn signals (including the repeater signals on the far side of the junction) to reinforce the fact that the right turn green arrow applies to right turns only?
Hopefully the following link will evidence what I mean: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3402071 ... 384!8i8192
Many thanks in anticipation of some knowledgeable responses!
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Assuming the main head has a red stop and the 2nd head a green arrow this is a reasonably standard set up and should not cause confusion. I am assuming the main head also has green arrows or does it have a normal green signal.
I can't see any reason should as bad sight lines for this to cause confusion here.
I can't see any reason should as bad sight lines for this to cause confusion here.
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie" - Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
Johnny Mo
Johnny Mo
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
It sounds like people are seeing an amber light come on and assuming it applies to them.
One solution might be to get rid of the red light for the right-turn signal head, and have the right turn arrow attached to the main signal. It would then just light up on its own, without an amber light, and vehicles waiting for a green light to go straight ahead might be less likely to think their own signal was changing.
One solution might be to get rid of the red light for the right-turn signal head, and have the right turn arrow attached to the main signal. It would then just light up on its own, without an amber light, and vehicles waiting for a green light to go straight ahead might be less likely to think their own signal was changing.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Hi. Many thanks for the replies. The main signal heads do have green straight ahead arrows. Having the right turn arrow attached to the main signal (and lighting up on its own without an amber light) may be the way forward.
I will contact Surrey County Council to discuss the possible options for improvement. I see "near misses" almost daily so hopefully SCC will be receptive to initiating changes.
Thanks again
Best wishes
I will contact Surrey County Council to discuss the possible options for improvement. I see "near misses" almost daily so hopefully SCC will be receptive to initiating changes.
Thanks again
Best wishes
- Chris Bertram
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Bryn
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Is that allowed?Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
I think in the back of a drawer there's an approval for an experimental site that may have sufficient loop holes to qualify as a borough wide approval for use where necessary.......Chris5156 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:09Is that allowed?Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- traffic-light-man
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
I'd noticed the rapid spread of amber arrows in Blackburn, but that'll explain why I hadn't been able to locate a more recent authorisation.
I'm personally a big fan of amber arrows particularly in these common stop line situations, but I get the sense there's generally quite a lot of push back with them being non-standard, even though DfT seem open to authorising them. Of course, arrows in all aspects would be the best approach...
There are cases of signs being mounted to the signal poles to inform drivers regarding the arrows. The ones I can think of all take the form of black-on-yellow signs mounted to the signal poles, both of which is somewhat wrong.Toothed Tiger wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 15:21Is there some form of additional signage that could be added to the right turn signals (including the repeater signals on the far side of the junction) to reinforce the fact that the right turn green arrow applies to right turns only?
This one in Knowsley, this one in Halton and this one in Warrington spring to mind.
These are all geared towards right turning traffic though, and a 'only continue straight ahead or turn left when straight ahead and left arrows show' type sign is going to be pretty wordy, I'd have thought!
I would imagine the full phase (RAG) for the right turn has been chosen on purpose, rather than an indicative arrow (where the right turns are permitted with the left & ahead, but are gap-accepting unless the green arrow is showing), so I'd imagine there'd be a bit of resistance against changing it for an indicative arrow.
A stage change could help though, not running the right turns together back-to-back like it appears they are currently, but instead running one with the ahead/left at the start, and the opposing one with the ahead/left at the end of the ahead/left movements. But again, the back-to-back arrangement has perhaps been decided on for a particular reason.
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- the cheesecake man
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
It's probably not strictly compliant, but you could put a small reminder sign underneath the lights like this (this is the opposite scenario of right-turning vehicles forgetting they have to give way).
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Or like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.83925 ... 384!8i8192
Also are there similar junctions like this* elsewhere in the UK? They are being quite common in Brighton but never seen them elsewhere.
* this = Traffic island directly in front of right turner's lane, and those turning right have to first go left into what would be the ahead lane to make their right turn.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.83925 ... 384!8i8192
Also are there similar junctions like this* elsewhere in the UK? They are being quite common in Brighton but never seen them elsewhere.
* this = Traffic island directly in front of right turner's lane, and those turning right have to first go left into what would be the ahead lane to make their right turn.
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
I'm sure there used to be a sign on the pole at this junction in Camberley that did say "Right turn goes first" but clearly it's not there any more...
On a separate note, this junction is being upgraded to add a toucan crossing in the next couple of months!
On a separate note, this junction is being upgraded to add a toucan crossing in the next couple of months!
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
just trying to squeeze too many vehicles into too small a space. Even at the line for left turn/straight ahead the total of the three lanes only seems to be 7-7.5m, down to 6m through the pedestrian crossing.jervi wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 17:23 Or like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.83925 ... 384!8i8192
Also are there similar junctions like this* elsewhere in the UK? They are being quite common in Brighton but never seen them elsewhere.
* this = Traffic island directly in front of right turner's lane, and those turning right have to first go left into what would be the ahead lane to make their right turn.
All that, and the islands are still fairly narrow (though by no means the worst I've seen). As are most of the footways
Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Before:Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
After:
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.Peter Freeman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
- traffic-light-man
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
That would be my preference, I don't see the point in mucking around with inverted arrows. This is especially true for a signal head using SIRA lenses or LED optics (or both) where they're bright enough even when masked.Peter Freeman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06 What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
As I've said before, I think amber arrows are a good starting point. Almost all of the problems with these arrangements come from the starting amber appearing while the adjacent signal remains at red. It's pretty much a non-issue when the two start together and then one terminates before the other. I think if enough authorities pushed to use amber arrows, they might have a chance of becoming prescribed somewhere down the line, but I just can't see red arrows even being considered for inclusion the regulations for a long while.
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
Nonsense. Illuminated arrows are just as visible as any other traffic signal. Extensively used here in AU (our signals are virtually all LEDs).WhiteBlueRed wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 07:29 They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.
I really can't see what the problem is with red or amber arrows.traffic-light-man wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 08:23That would be my preference, I don't see the point in mucking around with inverted arrows. This is especially true for a signal head using SIRA lenses or LED optics (or both) where they're bright enough even when masked.Peter Freeman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06 What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
As I've said before, I think amber arrows are a good starting point. Almost all of the problems with these arrangements come from the starting amber appearing while the adjacent signal remains at red. It's pretty much a non-issue when the two start together and then one terminates before the other. I think if enough authorities pushed to use amber arrows, they might have a chance of becoming prescribed somewhere down the line, but I just can't see red arrows even being considered for inclusion the regulations for a long while.
I can just about see how an amber circle preceding a green arrow might make someone assume that a green circle is coming. A starting amber arrow, instead of circle, would fix that, yes. AU doesn't have starting ambers: red goes directly to green.
If you can get to the amber arrow point, then surely replacing the right-hand red circle with a red arrow also makes sense? The fact that it's an arrow prepares the waiting driver for the fact that amber and green signals directly below it will also be arrows.
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Tue Aug 23, 2022 14:45, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion
More visible, in the sense that there's more surface area of the signal.WhiteBlueRed wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 07:29 They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.