Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Toothed Tiger
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 19:01

Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Toothed Tiger »

Hi. I am seeking help from you knowledgeable people before there is a major collision at a traffic signal controlled crossroads near me. On the major road (the A30 London Road Camberley) right turns into Knoll Road and Kings Ride are controlled under separate signal heads having green right turn arrows. However, on numerous occasions I have witnessed near misses where road users wanting to proceed straight ahead along the A30 have seen a green right turn arrow illuminate and have moved straight ahead, directly into the path of vehicles legitimately turning right.

Is there some form of additional signage that could be added to the right turn signals (including the repeater signals on the far side of the junction) to reinforce the fact that the right turn green arrow applies to right turns only?

Hopefully the following link will evidence what I mean: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3402071 ... 384!8i8192

Many thanks in anticipation of some knowledgeable responses!
User avatar
JohnnyMo
Member
Posts: 6982
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 13:56
Location: Letchworth, Herts, England

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by JohnnyMo »

Assuming the main head has a red stop and the 2nd head a green arrow this is a reasonably standard set up and should not cause confusion. I am assuming the main head also has green arrows or does it have a normal green signal.

I can't see any reason should as bad sight lines for this to cause confusion here.
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie" - Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
Johnny Mo
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Chris5156 »

It sounds like people are seeing an amber light come on and assuming it applies to them.

One solution might be to get rid of the red light for the right-turn signal head, and have the right turn arrow attached to the main signal. It would then just light up on its own, without an amber light, and vehicles waiting for a green light to go straight ahead might be less likely to think their own signal was changing.
Toothed Tiger
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 19:01

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Toothed Tiger »

Hi. Many thanks for the replies. The main signal heads do have green straight ahead arrows. Having the right turn arrow attached to the main signal (and lighting up on its own without an amber light) may be the way forward.

I will contact Surrey County Council to discuss the possible options for improvement. I see "near misses" almost daily so hopefully SCC will be receptive to initiating changes.

Thanks again

Best wishes
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15721
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Chris Bertram »

These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.
Is that allowed?
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:09
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:52
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Blackburn has a few amber arrow sites.
Is that allowed?
I think in the back of a drawer there's an approval for an experimental site that may have sufficient loop holes to qualify as a borough wide approval for use where necessary.......
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
traffic-light-man
Member
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 18:45
Location: Liverpool, UK

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by traffic-light-man »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:10I think in the back of a drawer there's an approval for an experimental site that may have sufficient loop holes to qualify as a borough wide approval for use where necessary.......
I'd noticed the rapid spread of amber arrows in Blackburn, but that'll explain why I hadn't been able to locate a more recent authorisation.

I'm personally a big fan of amber arrows particularly in these common stop line situations, but I get the sense there's generally quite a lot of push back with them being non-standard, even though DfT seem open to authorising them. Of course, arrows in all aspects would be the best approach...
Toothed Tiger wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 15:21Is there some form of additional signage that could be added to the right turn signals (including the repeater signals on the far side of the junction) to reinforce the fact that the right turn green arrow applies to right turns only?
There are cases of signs being mounted to the signal poles to inform drivers regarding the arrows. The ones I can think of all take the form of black-on-yellow signs mounted to the signal poles, both of which is somewhat wrong.

This one in Knowsley, this one in Halton and this one in Warrington spring to mind.

These are all geared towards right turning traffic though, and a 'only continue straight ahead or turn left when straight ahead and left arrows show' type sign is going to be pretty wordy, I'd have thought!

I would imagine the full phase (RAG) for the right turn has been chosen on purpose, rather than an indicative arrow (where the right turns are permitted with the left & ahead, but are gap-accepting unless the green arrow is showing), so I'd imagine there'd be a bit of resistance against changing it for an indicative arrow.

A stage change could help though, not running the right turns together back-to-back like it appears they are currently, but instead running one with the ahead/left at the start, and the opposing one with the ahead/left at the end of the ahead/left movements. But again, the back-to-back arrangement has perhaps been decided on for a particular reason.
Simon
delinquentwoody
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 07:32

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by delinquentwoody »

There are several amber arrows in the Grimsby area also.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2457
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by the cheesecake man »

It's probably not strictly compliant, but you could put a small reminder sign underneath the lights like this (this is the opposite scenario of right-turning vehicles forgetting they have to give way).
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by jervi »

Or like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.83925 ... 384!8i8192
Also are there similar junctions like this* elsewhere in the UK? They are being quite common in Brighton but never seen them elsewhere.

* this = Traffic island directly in front of right turner's lane, and those turning right have to first go left into what would be the ahead lane to make their right turn.
matt_12345
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 13:46
Location: Basingstoke

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by matt_12345 »

I'm sure there used to be a sign on the pole at this junction in Camberley that did say "Right turn goes first" but clearly it's not there any more...
On a separate note, this junction is being upgraded to add a toucan crossing in the next couple of months!
Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Al__S »

jervi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 17:23 Or like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.83925 ... 384!8i8192
Also are there similar junctions like this* elsewhere in the UK? They are being quite common in Brighton but never seen them elsewhere.

* this = Traffic island directly in front of right turner's lane, and those turning right have to first go left into what would be the ahead lane to make their right turn.
just trying to squeeze too many vehicles into too small a space. Even at the line for left turn/straight ahead the total of the three lanes only seems to be 7-7.5m, down to 6m through the pedestrian crossing.

All that, and the islands are still fairly narrow (though by no means the worst I've seen). As are most of the footways
User avatar
hughster
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 14:07

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by hughster »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
Before:
Image

After:
Image
Peter Freeman
Member
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 07:52
Location: Exits 9 & 10, M1 East, Melbourne, Australia

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Peter Freeman »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
WhiteBlueRed
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 03:58
Location: Krasnoyarsk, Russia

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Peter Freeman wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 17:21 These are the kind of situations where black arrows on the red and amber lights would be a real help. Why don't we do this? "Not invented here" seems like the probable cause.
What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.
User avatar
traffic-light-man
Member
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 18:45
Location: Liverpool, UK

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by traffic-light-man »

Peter Freeman wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06 What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
That would be my preference, I don't see the point in mucking around with inverted arrows. This is especially true for a signal head using SIRA lenses or LED optics (or both) where they're bright enough even when masked.

As I've said before, I think amber arrows are a good starting point. Almost all of the problems with these arrangements come from the starting amber appearing while the adjacent signal remains at red. It's pretty much a non-issue when the two start together and then one terminates before the other. I think if enough authorities pushed to use amber arrows, they might have a chance of becoming prescribed somewhere down the line, but I just can't see red arrows even being considered for inclusion the regulations for a long while.
Simon
Peter Freeman
Member
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 07:52
Location: Exits 9 & 10, M1 East, Melbourne, Australia

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by Peter Freeman »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 07:29 They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.
Nonsense. Illuminated arrows are just as visible as any other traffic signal. Extensively used here in AU (our signals are virtually all LEDs).
traffic-light-man wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 08:23
Peter Freeman wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 00:06 What's all this 'black arrows' business? Why not simply use a red or amber or green arrow?
That would be my preference, I don't see the point in mucking around with inverted arrows. This is especially true for a signal head using SIRA lenses or LED optics (or both) where they're bright enough even when masked.

As I've said before, I think amber arrows are a good starting point. Almost all of the problems with these arrangements come from the starting amber appearing while the adjacent signal remains at red. It's pretty much a non-issue when the two start together and then one terminates before the other. I think if enough authorities pushed to use amber arrows, they might have a chance of becoming prescribed somewhere down the line, but I just can't see red arrows even being considered for inclusion the regulations for a long while.
I really can't see what the problem is with red or amber arrows.

I can just about see how an amber circle preceding a green arrow might make someone assume that a green circle is coming. A starting amber arrow, instead of circle, would fix that, yes. AU doesn't have starting ambers: red goes directly to green.

If you can get to the amber arrow point, then surely replacing the right-hand red circle with a red arrow also makes sense? The fact that it's an arrow prepares the waiting driver for the fact that amber and green signals directly below it will also be arrows.
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Tue Aug 23, 2022 14:45, edited 3 times in total.
WhiteBlueRed
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 03:58
Location: Krasnoyarsk, Russia

Re: Traffic Signal Right Turn Confusion

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 07:29 They are more visible than red or amber arrows. The green arrow would be the same.
More visible, in the sense that there's more surface area of the signal.
Post Reply