Unique Traffic Signals

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pjr10th
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

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WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 16:51
Gareth wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 13:19 It's to stop motorists seeing the starting amber and assuming it's for through traffic. Would be much less of an issue if we had red & amber arrows and near enough eliminated entirely if we didn't use starting amber.
Starting amber is useful IMO, atleast to me. When a traffic light changes from red straight to green, I don't notice it as fast as I would've had I known it would change now (red+amber or countdown). In my country, the "red -> green -> yellow -> red" sequence is permitted at isolated traffic light installations. Thankfully my city uses the recommended sequence.
We also don't have starting amber. As a driver or cyclist, I wish for them, they seem useful to prepare yourself to go, especially in a manual car or on a bike, but you can normally figure out when it's about to go green for you based on knowledge of the sequence.

As a pedestrian (and cyclist, when road design treats cyclists as wheeled pedestrians) however I like not having it, as it gives a bigger window to frantically run/wheel across the road between stages.

I'm not sure why it's the case. When was the starting amber introduced in the UK? Not sure why they don't adopt it now, except for the effort it would require to change all existing lights to include a red-amber. But that can't be that much effort, surely (and could be phased over a few years)?
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

These signals in Dublin have a simultaneous early cutoff stage for both directions. Something that would be useful in the UK, but probably not permitted? Certainly I've never seen anything like it.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nH5A5HvnPmVtARAV8
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

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pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:34
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 16:51
Gareth wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 13:19 It's to stop motorists seeing the starting amber and assuming it's for through traffic. Would be much less of an issue if we had red & amber arrows and near enough eliminated entirely if we didn't use starting amber.
Starting amber is useful IMO, atleast to me. When a traffic light changes from red straight to green, I don't notice it as fast as I would've had I known it would change now (red+amber or countdown). In my country, the "red -> green -> yellow -> red" sequence is permitted at isolated traffic light installations. Thankfully my city uses the recommended sequence.
We also don't have starting amber. As a driver or cyclist, I wish for them, they seem useful to prepare yourself to go, especially in a manual car or on a bike, but you can normally figure out when it's about to go green for you based on knowledge of the sequence.

As a pedestrian (and cyclist, when road design treats cyclists as wheeled pedestrians) however I like not having it, as it gives a bigger window to frantically run/wheel across the road between stages.

I'm not sure why it's the case. When was the starting amber introduced in the UK? Not sure why they don't adopt it now, except for the effort it would require to change all existing lights to include a red-amber. But that can't be that much effort, surely (and could be phased over a few years)?
Jersey has no starting amber, but I'm led to believe that Guernsey does! And in Ireland the north does, but the republic doesn't. I think that the Isle of Man does, but I haven't been there for an awfully long time.
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Chris5156
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Chris5156 »

pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:34When was the starting amber introduced in the UK?
I don't know for sure, but some very early signal installations from the 1920s included it. At that time the signal sequence varied by manufacturer and there was no standard way of doing it, so manufacturers set up their controllers to do whatever they thought was best. Some traffic signals were just red and green lights, but others were more complex. Some Forest City lights ran the sequence red > red+amber > green > green+amber > red.

At some point it must have been standardised, and it's possible that starting amber was introduced then, since it would already have been present at many sites.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:40 These signals in Dublin have a simultaneous early cutoff stage for both directions. Something that would be useful in the UK, but probably not permitted? Certainly I've never seen anything like it.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nH5A5HvnPmVtARAV8
It's pretty common in North America, they call it a "lagging left turn" there, as opposed to a "leading left turn" when left turns get their green before the through green.
I don't know about Ireland, but my guess is that it is permitted, but rarely used, just like the case with "late starts" in the UK. It' actually safer to have an early cut-off in both directions as opposed to just one, because the danger of "yellow trap" is avoided. (Yellow trap is when a traffic light changes to red on one approach only, which is dangerous because right turners waiting in the junction may assume it changes in both directions, and turn in front of oncoming traffic thinking it will stop.)
Last edited by WhiteBlueRed on Thu Mar 31, 2022 03:01, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 23:29
pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:34When was the starting amber introduced in the UK?
I don't know for sure, but some very early signal installations from the 1920s included it. At that time the signal sequence varied by manufacturer and there was no standard way of doing it, so manufacturers set up their controllers to do whatever they thought was best. Some traffic signals were just red and green lights, but others were more complex. Some Forest City lights ran the sequence red > red+amber > green > green+amber > red.

At some point it must have been standardised, and it's possible that starting amber was introduced then, since it would already have been present at many sites.
Something interesting about my country, back in the Soviet Union, the sequence was "red -> yellow -> green -> yellow -> red". That's right, it changed from red to just a yellow.
This is unpermitted nowadays, but a year ago on a trip through Achinsk, we passed through a junction, where the sequence was "red -> yellow -> green -> flashing green -> yellow -> red". Yet the signals were LED and there was even a countdown. On GSV, it appears that there was indeed red+yellow at the time they were there, so it was probably a fault in the controller.
https://www.google.ru/maps/@56.3137901, ... 312!8i6656
pjr10th
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:45
pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:34
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 16:51
Starting amber is useful IMO, atleast to me. When a traffic light changes from red straight to green, I don't notice it as fast as I would've had I known it would change now (red+amber or countdown). In my country, the "red -> green -> yellow -> red" sequence is permitted at isolated traffic light installations. Thankfully my city uses the recommended sequence.
We also don't have starting amber. As a driver or cyclist, I wish for them, they seem useful to prepare yourself to go, especially in a manual car or on a bike, but you can normally figure out when it's about to go green for you based on knowledge of the sequence.

As a pedestrian (and cyclist, when road design treats cyclists as wheeled pedestrians) however I like not having it, as it gives a bigger window to frantically run/wheel across the road between stages.

I'm not sure why it's the case. When was the starting amber introduced in the UK? Not sure why they don't adopt it now, except for the effort it would require to change all existing lights to include a red-amber. But that can't be that much effort, surely (and could be phased over a few years)?
Jersey has no starting amber, but I'm led to believe that Guernsey does! And in Ireland the north does, but the republic doesn't. I think that the Isle of Man does, but I haven't been there for an awfully long time.
The Guernsey folk do have it and the Manx do as well. I believe the Manx adopt the TSRGD word for word so there shouldn't be any differences, except accounting for regulatory differences like the national speed limit.

Guernsey seems more willing to adopt UK traffic lights (e.g. they have nearside pedestrian lights, unlike Jersey or Northern Ireland). Nevertheless, both islands like to keep their distinctiveness and refuse to adopt the UK regulations. Presumably partly because following the rules costs more money. Hence differences like the Jersey traffic lights, Filter in turn, x5 speed limits and yellow give way lines.
pjr10th
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 23:29
pjr10th wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 22:34When was the starting amber introduced in the UK?
I don't know for sure, but some very early signal installations from the 1920s included it. At that time the signal sequence varied by manufacturer and there was no standard way of doing it, so manufacturers set up their controllers to do whatever they thought was best. Some traffic signals were just red and green lights, but others were more complex. Some Forest City lights ran the sequence red > red+amber > green > green+amber > red.

At some point it must have been standardised, and it's possible that starting amber was introduced then, since it would already have been present at many sites.
Hm, so possibly the authorities at the time decided to not have the starting amber, and have never seen the point of switching it over. How easy would it be to change that sequence. Presumably each signal would have to be changed individually to incorporate it?
WhiteBlueRed
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

I think I've heard of starting amber being used somewhere in Ireland, because they simply used British controllers.
pjr10th
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 05:16 I think I've heard of starting amber being used somewhere in Ireland, because they simply used British controllers.
They presumably don't come pre-set though, as each junction is different? Jersey will definitely be using UK controllers, so it wouldn't make sense for them to be specifically removing the starting amber.
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Gareth
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth »

There's a fair bit of flexibility, I think. Liverpool have removed the pedestrian blackout at many mellor era sites without seemingly changing the controller. In Ireland, Cork uses flashing green man as a clearance phase at junctions, similar to Hong Kong.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 23:29Some Forest City lights ran the sequence red > red+amber > green > green+amber > red.
Some speculation here, but, the Forest City equipment appears to be from a US company called Harrington Seaberg and was either imported and rebranded, or manufactured under license (I think the latter is more likely given the branding was cast in to the equipment). They typically featured the Red/Amber and Green/Amber overlaps in their US product line, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason it appeared here, too.

Similarly, there's evidence of Tokheim, another US company, having equipment installed in the UK in the early days. They also typically used the Red/Amber and Green/Amber overlaps in their US product line, so it makes sense that this theory would carry here too.

Why the green and amber was dropped but the red and amber retained is somewhat more of a mystery. I can see the logic behind it though, especially since the starting amber still carries the same meaning as the red, but the closing amber is different to that of the green. Perhaps the sequence was also made official when the meaning of each colour was entered into the regulations?
pjr10th wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:51
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 05:16 I think I've heard of starting amber being used somewhere in Ireland, because they simply used British controllers.
They presumably don't come pre-set though, as each junction is different? Jersey will definitely be using UK controllers, so it wouldn't make sense for them to be specifically removing the starting amber.
They don't come preset, no*, and it's just data programmed into the controller's memory that the drives the sequence these days. The heart of the Dynniq controllers are the same for both sides of the North Sea, the Telent controllers are Austrian and the Yunex controllers have export versions, so they're all capable of being configured in whatever sequence is required.

It would've been different during the days of relay logic and electromechanical controllers, but even still, it would have essentially just involved removing a relay or piece of metal in order to omit the starting amber.

*Some pedestrian controllers are actually preset to some extent, but I'll ignore those for now for the sake of this discussion!
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Chris Bertram »

Signals in Italy had the sequence Red -> Green -> Green+Amber -> Red into the seventies at least. I don't know when this was changed so that the Amber showed alone.
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Gareth
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth »

The GDR had red > red+amber > green > green+amber > amber > red. The green+amber would actually last a good few seconds before the green went off to leave just the amber.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Gareth wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 14:07 There's a fair bit of flexibility, I think. Liverpool have removed the pedestrian blackout at many mellor era sites without seemingly changing the controller. In Ireland, Cork uses flashing green man as a clearance phase at junctions, similar to Hong Kong.
I don't know why, but IMO a flashing green man is just better than an amber man. It conveys a sense of urgency to clear the crossing due to the flash, and is easier to notice too.
pjr10th
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 05:41
Gareth wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 14:07 There's a fair bit of flexibility, I think. Liverpool have removed the pedestrian blackout at many mellor era sites without seemingly changing the controller. In Ireland, Cork uses flashing green man as a clearance phase at junctions, similar to Hong Kong.
I don't know why, but IMO a flashing green man is just better than an amber man. It conveys a sense of urgency to clear the crossing due to the flash, and is easier to notice too.
I don't know about Russia, but UK lights of course don't have the option of an amber man. The best imo is to just flip it straight to red, unless there's a traffic island, in which case, blackout until there's enough time for a model pedestrian to get off that island. Need to discourage pedestrians from stopping half way when they still have time to get across or backtracking even though there's a clearance period. Flashing green might be interpreted by some to mean pedestrians can still step out & have right of way (as is the case for the pelican crossing).

Of course, with LED displays, the BEST option is to use the unused aspect for a countdown.

Red man shows top, red countdown shows bottom when the call button is pressed, showing maximum time left until next signal change.
Green man shows on bottom, green countdown shows up top, showing maximum possible time until pedestrians clear.
Green man disappears, green countdown changes to amber in enough time for the crossing to fully clear.

Farsides need a ped/cycle symbol like nearsides.
Also dedicated cycle symbols (and possibly mainline signals) should have a countdown clock with the maximum time until the light changes to green.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

Here in Russia, we have a red and a green man. The green man flashes for atleast 3 seconds before changing to a red man. The countdown is displayed throughout the whole time the green man is displayed, not just during the clearance period as in the UK.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

I wonder what's the purpose of those lights on the A55?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2606004 ... 384!8i8192
Also something interesting, a traffic light and a STOP sign after it. Since visibility is good, I assume the STOP sign is because of the high speed on the dual carriageway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2666881 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by SteelCamel »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 05:57 I wonder what's the purpose of those lights on the A55?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2606004 ... 384!8i8192
It's just in front of the removable barrier, so presumably would go to red to allow the barrier to be removed a contraflow to be set up. There's the same setup at the other end
WhiteBlueRed wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 05:57 Also something interesting, a traffic light and a STOP sign after it. Since visibility is good, I assume the STOP sign is because of the high speed on the dual carriageway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2666881 ... 312!8i6656
This seems to be the same - if the contraflow is active on the other carriageway, this is leading onto a closed carriageway, so presumably the light goes to permanent red. If the road is open, the STOP sign is in effect - and while visibility is good, you're still joining a 70mph dual carriageway with no acceleration lane.

Really I'd have expected wig-wags to be used for all of these rather than normal traffic signals though.
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Wig-wags are not authorised to be placed at tunnels anymore I believe
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