Green sign on the motorway?

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SBRoxMan
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Green sign on the motorway?

Post by SBRoxMan »

Image

Caught this image right at the end of the M58 just before the infamous Switch Island interchange. There was this recently installed green sign informing drivers of where to go for Southport. As this is placed before the "End of restrictions" sign and is therefore intended for motorway users, shouldn't this sign actually be in blue with green panels/patches around the A Roads only? Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems like something that should not be placed when still under motorway restrictions

Google Maps link - https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4954022 ... 312!8i6656
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jervi
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by jervi »

I'd agree with you. Although blue "For" signs are pretty uncommon, especially once you start putting green patches/panels in them.

What about this non-primary sign on a motorway exit slip with 11 destinations on it along with loads of other issues - https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9214874 ... 384!8i8192
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Bryn666
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Simply put it's wrong.

You would not need any green panels on a "for x follow y" sign either.
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jonnyf90
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by jonnyf90 »

jervi wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 18:40 I'd agree with you. Although blue "For" signs are pretty uncommon, especially once you start putting green patches/panels in them.

What about this non-primary sign on a motorway exit slip with 11 destinations on it along with loads of other issues - https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9214874 ... 384!8i8192
Would've that been better off with a blue border (I know discontinued by 93) to show local destinations?

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Road2Nowhere
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Road2Nowhere »

I assume M25 Junction 4 spur sign is the correct way for green panels on blue?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3465982 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Road2Nowhere wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:27 I assume M25 Junction 4 spur sign is the correct way for green panels on blue?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3465982 ... 384!8i8192
NO! Only MOD and Tourist panels should be used on flag signs.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by A9NWIL »

Road2Nowhere wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:27 I assume M25 Junction 4 spur sign is the correct way for green panels on blue?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3465982 ... 384!8i8192
Ah the one part of the M25 I havent yet been on!
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Road2Nowhere
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Road2Nowhere »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:45
Road2Nowhere wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:27 I assume M25 Junction 4 spur sign is the correct way for green panels on blue?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3465982 ... 384!8i8192
NO! Only MOD and Tourist panels should be used on flag signs.
Ah ha, had a sneaking suspicion it didn't look right but didn't know why and the original post gave me a way in. Thanks for your confirmation.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by jervi »

Road2Nowhere wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:27 I assume M25 Junction 4 spur sign is the correct way for green panels on blue?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3465982 ... 384!8i8192
I think that sign is wrong, since its pointing down a motorway spur, it shouldn't have patches or panels.
it should be similar to this sign https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15908 ... 384!8i8192

I'd struggling to think of a situation where a motorway flag sign with a non-primary or primary patch or panel could be used since flag signs take the colour of the route they are pointing down. Also having a public side road off of a motorway is extremely rare for that to even exist in the first place.
I'd imagine in places a motorway stack sign with primary & non-primary panels could be used, although a quick look and I couldn't find any, so I may be wrong.

The general rule of thumb is that any slip road that leads to something under motorway regulations (such as the roundabout and spur at M25 J4) should be a motorway sign like this https://www.google.com/maps/@51.345415, ... 312!8i6656 (however the A21 should be in () ) with the motorway font used for numbers. While a slip road that leads to something that is not a motorway has a motorway backboard, however panels are used since the other roads would not be under motorway regulations - like this https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3855525 ... 384!8i8192

Also the sign on the spur leading to the roundabout at the end is incorrect. Because its not a slip road it should follow the rules as if it was the main line and have numbers in the motorway font with no panels or patches. This issue is also with the lane sign too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34643 ... 384!8i8192
That sign should be like this one on the M23 spur. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15991 ... 384!8i8192
No patches or panels and motorway font used. Also the ahead has the two arms shown since there would be u-turning traffic coming from the opposite direction.
In general, look at the M23 spur to see how things should be signed, that M25 spur is dreadful
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by SouthWest Philip »

jervi wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:58 Also the sign on the spur leading to the roundabout at the end is incorrect. Because its not a slip road it should follow the rules as if it was the main line and have numbers in the motorway font with no panels or patches. This issue is also with the lane sign too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34643 ... 384!8i8192
That sign should be like this one on the M23 spur. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15991 ... 384!8i8192
No patches or panels and motorway font used. Also the ahead has the two arms shown since there would be u-turning traffic coming from the opposite direction.
In general, look at the M23 spur to see how things should be signed, that M25 spur is dreadful
A quick scan of Google maps of other motorway mainline terminating at roundabouts suggests it is normal to treat them the same as slip roads leading to roundabouts and patch the destinations. This is the case, for example, at on the M4 at jnc 49, M65 jnc 14 and M90 Broxburn. The signs at the end of the M45 and M50 aren't patched but almost certainly predate Guildford rules.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

That M23 sign is wrong, because they've copied the pre-1994 sign and not done it right at all.
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jervi
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by jervi »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:29 That M23 sign is wrong, because they've copied the pre-1994 sign and not done it right at all.
So it is supposed to have panels? or is something else wrong with it?
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by fras »

Well, they've got it wrong, but does it matter if it conveys the right info ? I suspect even HE and council highways people find the regulations a bit daunting.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

fras wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:34 Well, they've got it wrong, but does it matter if it conveys the right info ? I suspect even HE and council highways people find the regulations a bit daunting.
The regs are quite simple, if HE and local councils can't figure them out then they lack the competence to do their jobs and should resign. A sign on a pink background written in Comic Sans conveys the right info but you wouldn't accept it as a traffic sign.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Chris5156 »

jervi wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:58Also the sign on the spur leading to the roundabout at the end is incorrect. Because its not a slip road it should follow the rules as if it was the main line and have numbers in the motorway font with no panels or patches. This issue is also with the lane sign too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34643 ... 384!8i8192
That sign should be like this one on the M23 spur. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15991 ... 384!8i8192
No, that's the wrong way round. The one on the M23 is wrong - it would have been correct pre-1994 but no longer is. Signs on a motorway where you are returning to the ordinary road system should have Guildford Rules panels on them. It's not 100% consistent but it is the correct way according to the rules. So the first of those two examples is correct.
fras wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:34Well, they've got it wrong, but does it matter if it conveys the right info ? I suspect even HE and council highways people find the regulations a bit daunting.
If I found the correct way to do my job "a bit daunting" I think it would be fair to say I should be looking for another job.
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SBRoxMan
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by SBRoxMan »

fras wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:34 Well, they've got it wrong, but does it matter if it conveys the right info ? I suspect even HE and council highways people find the regulations a bit daunting.
Even if it conveys the right info, it's not the kind of mistake HE should be making in the first place. Of all the regulations, "blue signs under motorway regulations" is one pretty much everybody understands
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:41
fras wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 23:34 Well, they've got it wrong, but does it matter if it conveys the right info ? I suspect even HE and council highways people find the regulations a bit daunting.
The regs are quite simple, if HE and local councils can't figure them out then they lack the competence to do their jobs and should resign. A sign on a pink background written in Comic Sans conveys the right info but you wouldn't accept it as a traffic sign.
Ha, ha, touché ! I think I could stand the pink, and Comic Sans doesn't look too bad either when I look at it in MS Word.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Stevie D »

jervi wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 21:58I think that sign is wrong, since its pointing down a motorway spur, it shouldn't have patches or panels.
it should be similar to this sign https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15908 ... 384!8i8192

I'd struggling to think of a situation where a motorway flag sign with a non-primary or primary patch or panel could be used since flag signs take the colour of the route they are pointing down. Also having a public side road off of a motorway is extremely rare for that to even exist in the first place.
I'd imagine in places a motorway stack sign with primary & non-primary panels could be used, although a quick look and I couldn't find any, so I may be wrong.

The general rule of thumb is that any slip road that leads to something under motorway regulations (such as the roundabout and spur at M25 J4) should be a motorway sign like this https://www.google.com/maps/@51.345415, ... 312!8i6656 (however the A21 should be in () ) with the motorway font used for numbers. While a slip road that leads to something that is not a motorway has a motorway backboard, however panels are used since the other roads would not be under motorway regulations - like this https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3855525 ... 384!8i8192

Also the sign on the spur leading to the roundabout at the end is incorrect. Because its not a slip road it should follow the rules as if it was the main line and have numbers in the motorway font with no panels or patches. This issue is also with the lane sign too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34643 ... 384!8i8192
That sign should be like this one on the M23 spur. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15991 ... 384!8i8192
No patches or panels and motorway font used. Also the ahead has the two arms shown since there would be u-turning traffic coming from the opposite direction.
In general, look at the M23 spur to see how things should be signed, that M25 spur is dreadful
Disagree.

An advance direction sign on a motorway (mainline or sliproad) approaching a terminal, non-freeflow, junction should use panels to indicate that the roads leading directly away from the junction are primary or non-primary.

There aren't many motorway mainlines (if you don't count spurs like at M25 J4) that end at a terminal, non-freeflow, junction, but the M271 gets it right: https://goo.gl/maps/JcRF662Nt9bMLdCb6 (that is, if you count it as a motorway and not a glorified spur of the M27!)
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Patrick Harper »

Stevie D wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:05but the M271 gets it right: https://goo.gl/maps/JcRF662Nt9bMLdCb6 (that is, if you count it as a motorway and not a glorified spur of the M27!)
The route symbol used on that sign is not appropriate for a grade separated junction. It should be based on Figure 5-22 from TSM Chapter 7.
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Re: Green sign on the motorway?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Patrick Harper wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:33
Stevie D wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:05but the M271 gets it right: https://goo.gl/maps/JcRF662Nt9bMLdCb6 (that is, if you count it as a motorway and not a glorified spur of the M27!)
The route symbol used on that sign is not appropriate for a grade separated junction. It should be based on Figure 5-22 from TSM Chapter 7.
It's a flat roundabout, isn't it? Or at least it was when I last went that way (en route to IoW).
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