Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

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JohnnyMo
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Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by JohnnyMo »

TfL are setting 18, more to follow, pelican crossing to green person by default (green person authority). When traffic is detected the lights will change. I suspect some petrol heads will see red over this :furious:
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by WHBM »

Why not just convert them to zebras ?
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

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WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:02 Why not just convert them to zebras ?
Certain elements of highway design seem to forget zebras exist. Properly designed ones - e.g. not the gold plated anti-skid 3 miles either side, 2 miles of guard rail, just a simple carriageway narrowing with two beacons and tactiles, are a cheap and very beneficial fix.

They also don't cause idiots to decide they don't need to stop at red lights "because nothing is there" either.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:45Properly designed ones - e.g. not the gold plated anti-skid 3 miles either side, 2 miles of guard rail
Bryn, you're beginning to sound like me ... :)

One of the best zebra incidents I saw, years ago, was a gentleman in a suit come to the crossing, look at the traffic, and put one foot on it. Car that was going to blast through stopped, about halfway across the zebra itself.

Gent in suit slowly pulls out from his pocket ... a police warrant card, shows it, says something to driver, who instead engages reverse and backs from the crossing - and smashes out the headlights of the car which has stopped behind him. How I would have loved to hear the subsequent discussion.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Stevie D »

WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:02Why not just convert them to zebras ?
Zebra crossings are good in the right circumstances but they are not a solution for everywhere.
In particular, if pedestrian flows are too high then there may be too few breaks for road traffic to pass, whereas a pelican crossing can control how much time is allocated to each of pedestrians and road traffic.
My gut feeling is that there is also better compliance with pelican crossings, and pedestrians are more likely to feel (justifiable) confidence in walking across when there is traffic approaching but a green man showing than walking across a zebra crossing when there is traffic approaching that hasn't yet stopped.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

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Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:28 My gut feeling is that there is also better compliance with pelican crossings
I am really surprised by that statement. Compliance BY PEDESTRIANS at Pelicans, other than when road traffic is a continuous stream, is appalling. Probably less than 10% wait in light traffic for their green.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Chris Bertram »

WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:51
Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:28 My gut feeling is that there is also better compliance with pelican crossings
I am really surprised by that statement. Compliance BY PEDESTRIANS at Pelicans, other than when road traffic is a continuous stream, is appalling. Probably less than 10% wait in light traffic for their green.
Aren't pedestrian signals in the UK purely advisory?
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:22
WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:51
Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:28 My gut feeling is that there is also better compliance with pelican crossings
I am really surprised by that statement. Compliance BY PEDESTRIANS at Pelicans, other than when road traffic is a continuous stream, is appalling. Probably less than 10% wait in light traffic for their green.
Aren't pedestrian signals in the UK purely advisory?
Yes.

Instead of the continuous red TfL propose, I have suggested the following in the past:

Remove green signal for vehicles from ped crossings - replace all with a flashing amber. This means that the crossing functions like a zebra crossing - if anyone steps out, they have priority. However, less confident pedestrians can press the button which immediately calls the signal to go red for vehicles and gives them a protected crossing stage.

Now pelicans are obsolete, we should be looking to repurpose flashing amber for 'give way' situations in general. If Ireland can cope with flashing ambers, so can we.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by JohnnyMo »

WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:02 Why not just convert them to zebras ?
But that won't stop the traffic for long enough. Pedestrian Green phase, car arrived, Flashing green phase for pedestrian in case any pedestrians are on the crossing ( say 20-30 seconds), before the traffic lights start to change.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:34Now pelicans are obsolete, we should be looking to repurpose flashing amber for 'give way' situations in general. If Ireland can cope with flashing ambers, so can we.
Obsolescent, I think, not entirely obsolete, there are still quite a few around awaiting replacement. But I agree with you re flashing amber, and see no reason why we should not expand its applicability in other situations similar to Ireland and France.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 13:17
Bryn666 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:34Now pelicans are obsolete, we should be looking to repurpose flashing amber for 'give way' situations in general. If Ireland can cope with flashing ambers, so can we.
Obsolescent, I think, not entirely obsolete, there are still quite a few around awaiting replacement. But I agree with you re flashing amber, and see no reason why we should not expand its applicability in other situations similar to Ireland and France.
Yes, you're right - they are no longer prescribed as of 2016 so life expired ones have to be replaced with Puffins or Pedex (which is a farside Puffin, sometimes with countdown timer).

In Blackburn dead pelicans are reborn as zebras.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Debaser »

JohnnyMo wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 09:19 TfL are setting 18, more to follow, pelican crossing to green person by default (green person authority). When traffic is detected the lights will change. I suspect some petrol heads will see red over this :furious:
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Hmmm...following the fine example of Kingston upon Hull...but just 30 years late.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

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WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:51
Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 11:28 My gut feeling is that there is also better compliance with pelican crossings
I am really surprised by that statement. Compliance BY PEDESTRIANS at Pelicans, other than when road traffic is a continuous stream, is appalling. Probably less than 10% wait in light traffic for their green.
There is no such concept as pedestrian compliance with pelican crossings, because there is nothing for them to comply with. Pedestrians are not required to wait for the green man, they are allowed to cross at any time (as long as it doesn't pose a danger to other road users, obvs).

I would also be amazed if so few pedestrians are waiting for a green man unless your observation sights are highly atypical. In most urban situations there is far too much traffic around for that many pedestrians to cross on a red man.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by WHBM »

Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 15:57
There is no such concept as pedestrian compliance with pelican crossings, because there is nothing for them to comply with. Pedestrians are not required to wait for the green man, they are allowed to cross at any time
Highway Code Rule 22 :
hc.JPG
"Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings operated by pedestrians. Push the control button to activate the traffic signals. When the red figure shows, do not cross. When a steady green figure shows, check the traffic has stopped"
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Chris Bertram »

WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 17:16
Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 15:57
There is no such concept as pedestrian compliance with pelican crossings, because there is nothing for them to comply with. Pedestrians are not required to wait for the green man, they are allowed to cross at any time
Highway Code Rule 22 :hc.JPG
"Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings operated by pedestrians. Push the control button to activate the traffic signals. When the red figure shows, do not cross. When a steady green figure shows, check the traffic has stopped"
Sound advice. But not the law, or there would be a MUST NOT in there.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Stevie D »

WHBM wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 17:16
Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 15:57
There is no such concept as pedestrian compliance with pelican crossings, because there is nothing for them to comply with. Pedestrians are not required to wait for the green man, they are allowed to cross at any time
Highway Code Rule 22 :hc.JPG
"Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings operated by pedestrians. Push the control button to activate the traffic signals. When the red figure shows, do not cross. When a steady green figure shows, check the traffic has stopped"
The Highway Code is not law, it is guidance. It is not illegal to cross when a red man is showing.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by traffic-light-man »

As I've mentioned recently in another similar thread, Liverpool has a dual Puffin that rests in pedestrian green, and it's been like that since around 2006 when it was installed.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

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Stevie D wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 17:54 The Highway Code is not law, it is guidance. It is not illegal to cross when a red man is showing.
I think I knew that...

Compliance does not mean illegal. But one is expected to comply with the Highway Code.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by Gareth »

I'm assuming these will be normal sequence signals and not actual pelican crossings. It makes sense in certain circumstances, such as where pedestrian footfall is large for much of the day.
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Re: Reversal of priority on pelican crossings

Post by jervi »

Seems like a good idea.
Kinda similar to this crossing https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.82519 ... 384!8i8192 where the crossing gets a green light whenever the A23 has a green light without the need of pushing a button. This junction is actually pretty well designed (apart from not having a segregated cycle crossing) with only needing two phases, both giving a different pedestrian crossings a green without the need of pushing a button.
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