E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

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northken
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E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by northken »

As the trials in London have just started, I've been reading over The Electric Scooter Trials and Traffic Signs (Coronavirus) Regulations and General Directions 2020 and I'm curious about the changes it has made to TSRGD 2016.

Are trial e-scooters allowed past No Motor Vehicles (Dia 619) and No Entry except cycles signage?
Does the No Motorbikes (Dia 619.2) sign apply to trial e-scooters? Does Dia 619.1?

As far as I’m aware local authorities have been changing traffic orders to accommodate the new scheme, but I’m more interested on the changes specifically to signage meanings. Thanks in advance.
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Gareth
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by Gareth »

It's a good question and I don't know the answer for sure but I would've thought they're considered motorised vehicles, as they move under their own propulsion. Thus "Except for cycles" or "No motor vehicles" wouldn't exempt them.

Btw, you really should've put this in the main section. You'd have gotten more responses. This this the area for remedials/weirdos/exiles etc.
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FosseWay
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by FosseWay »

I don't know the answer either, but Gareth brings up an interesting point:
Gareth wrote:I would've thought they're considered motorised vehicles, as they move under their own propulsion. Thus "Except for cycles" or "No motor vehicles" wouldn't exempt them.
Mechanically, I can see the logic in that, and I can see the reason why an e-scooter would be a "motor vehicle" while an e-bike - which requires energy input from the rider as well - isn't. But from all other perspectives, dividing vehicles up like that is a bit, um, daft IMO. We tend to get fixated by what the signs say, and then what kinds of vehicle are covered by which signs. What we should really be looking at is why the signs are there in the first place - i.e. what behaviour is found to be sufficiently dangerous or obnoxious that it's worth banning it there.

We restrict access to motor vehicles in certain locations because they are large, noisy, smelly and capable of sufficiently high speeds to pose an unacceptable risk, while in the same places we allow bicycles because they do not have these issues, or if they do, they are much reduced and therefore liveable with. This doesn't have to do per se with whether the vehicle has a motor. An electric car is neither noisy nor smelly, but it still has the size and speed characteristics of an ICE vehicle. An ICE moped may well not be capable of unacceptable speed in the circumstances, but it can easily be noisy and smelly. A bicycle may be problematic if the speed at which bicycles are commonly ridden is too fast for the specific location. But an e-scooter limited to 12 mph may not have this problem, despite being a "motor vehicle".

We should be asking ourselves "What is the problem here?" Is it pedestrians being put at risk by other road users going too fast and too close to them? Is it noise or fumes? Is it congestion? And then we should restrict vehicular access in such a way as to combat whatever the problem is. In this case, virtually none of the problems that are solved or reduced by reducing motor traffic on a roadway (not the pavement) are relevant to e-scooters, so there is no good reason to ban their use on roads with the "no motorbike stunts" sign.
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delinquentwoody
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by delinquentwoody »

I'm on a slight tangent here from the topic but there seems to be discrepancies between what scooters are allowed to do in the different trials around the UK. For example, I read that in the upcoming London trials the scooters are to be restricted to 12mph or 8mph in certain areas. In my town however, these scooters have no speed limit restriction - and they can (and do) do 40mph. Despite the instructions being that a driving licence is a requirement and they are only to be driven on roads, everyday I see young primary age children on these on the footpaths, no helmet, 40mph. I would say 80% of the scooters I see in my hometown are on the footpaths at highly excessive speeds.. I've witnessed drugs being delivered on them, many small children going at 40mph on them, and even a homeless person carrying their worldly belongings on the handlebars. I think there needs to be clarity and uniformity in rules issued to the public on the use of these - because in my town these are becoming a dangerous menace with the speed they go at. The local police force are posting almost every day about these, reminding that they must be driven on roads only not the paths, and that driving licence points will be given for breaches of this - but not sure that is having much of an effect stopping the young tearaways.
linuxrocks
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by linuxrocks »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:29 Mechanically, I can see the logic in that, and I can see the reason why an e-scooter would be a "motor vehicle" while an e-bike - which requires energy input from the rider as well - isn't.
Can't you scoot an e-scooter like an ordinary scooter?
northken
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by northken »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:29 so there is no good reason to ban their use on roads with the "no motorbike stunts" sign.
I am quite minded to agree. I can't see a reason why they shouldn't be allowed to use cycling contraflows or go via modal filters on Low Traffic Neighbourhoods.

I am perplexed by what the DfT has and has not allowed. Based on my reading of the regulations, e-scooters are allowed in mandatory cycle lanes, through cyle-only lights, and in Pedestrian & Cycle Zones. I think they've also included trial e-scooters in the No Cycling sign (Dia. 951) and made no changes to the flying motorbike symbol, meaning both, however bizzarely, prohibit e-scooters. Even weirder, the Pedestrian & Cycle Zone sign (Dia. 618.3C) includes the flying motorbike!

The police seem to be broadcasting a lot about the illegality of using your own e-scooter, but little on what trial e-scooter users can do. To be honest, I'd rather hope they weren't too fussed.
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by FosseWay »

linuxrocks wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:56
FosseWay wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:29 Mechanically, I can see the logic in that, and I can see the reason why an e-scooter would be a "motor vehicle" while an e-bike - which requires energy input from the rider as well - isn't.
Can't you scoot an e-scooter like an ordinary scooter?
Good question to which I don't know the answer, but I imagine you get a degree of resistance from the motor that you don't get on the kind of scooter everyone had when I was a kid. Unless there's a neutral mode where you can disconnect the wheel(s) from the motor?
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FosseWay
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Re: E-scooters and TSRGD 2016

Post by FosseWay »

northken wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:21
FosseWay wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 06:29 so there is no good reason to ban their use on roads with the "no motorbike stunts" sign.
I am quite minded to agree. I can't see a reason why they shouldn't be allowed to use cycling contraflows or go via modal filters on Low Traffic Neighbourhoods.

I am perplexed by what the DfT has and has not allowed. Based on my reading of the regulations, e-scooters are allowed in mandatory cycle lanes, through cyle-only lights, and in Pedestrian & Cycle Zones. I think they've also included trial e-scooters in the No Cycling sign (Dia. 951) and made no changes to the flying motorbike symbol, meaning both, however bizzarely, prohibit e-scooters. Even weirder, the Pedestrian & Cycle Zone sign (Dia. 618.3C) includes the flying motorbike!

The police seem to be broadcasting a lot about the illegality of using your own e-scooter, but little on what trial e-scooter users can do. To be honest, I'd rather hope they weren't too fussed.
A lot of the official reaction to these things seems to boil down to "this is new, better ban/restrict it" as a knee-jerk reaction. I see no reason to treat e-scooters any different from bicycles (conventional or e-bikes). They are capable of similar speeds. The risks to riders and to others in the vicinity are similar. If we accept the status quo in most countries that cyclists don't need licences or compulsory training, then I see no reason not to accept the same with e-scooters. (An aside on that: Ashley Neal recently test-rode one on YouTube, and in the Liverpool scheme at least, you have to have at least a provisional driving licence to hire one, and you have to scan your licence in the app to release it for use. I don't really see the point of this: for a start, as said, I don't see that they're per se riskier than a bicycle, for which no licence is needed, and secondly, a provisional licence is proof of absolutely nothing other than your age.)

I've yet to see anything inherent in e-scooters that means their use should be regulated any more than bicycles are. Sure, there are problems with people riding them irresponsibly and/or parking them in obstructive places, but if those issues were taken similarly seriously for other road vehicles we'd never have repealed the Red Flag Act. I think the onus should be on the police and the legal system to explain why e-scooters are such a menace that they need controlling differently from bicycles. Just making a law saying "these are banned" isn't good enough.
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