Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by AndyB »

MOVA is vehicle-actuated, usually by diamond-shaped loops in the road in advance. It runs traffic lights according to what's on approach unless there is a loop failure, in which case it reverts to fixed timings.

SCOOT has square loops on the exit of the junction, and measures how many vehicles have just gone that way. It runs traffic lights on a coordinated basis according to how it thinks it can keep traffic moving best through the system, depending on what there is room for. If there are no particular problems, they revert to fixed timings.

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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by pjr10th »

Gareth wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 16:42
fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
Very few are genuinely automatic. It's usually just that the green man runs with a vehicle movement which always has plenty of vehicles throughout the day triggering the stage. Go to the same site in the early hours of the morning and if there are no or few cars and you should find the button makes a difference.
It should be noted that while most won't be automatic, you can normally tell by if it's a one-way side road. I find those are normally automatic, as the green man defaults to green, only changing to let vehicles out of the side road. My example is the junction of Gloucester Street and Route de la Libération in Jersey. Gloucester Street is one way and the minor phase at low-demand, so I believe the crossing across Gloucester Street always stays green unless a car wants to leave it.

Can't think of any other situation where the lights are permanently automatically green (i.e. the button will always be useless), maybe some examples based on turn restrictions?
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by pjr10th »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21 In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.
In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Chris Bertram »

pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:33
Gareth wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 16:42
fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
Very few are genuinely automatic. It's usually just that the green man runs with a vehicle movement which always has plenty of vehicles throughout the day triggering the stage. Go to the same site in the early hours of the morning and if there are no or few cars and you should find the button makes a difference.
It should be noted that while most won't be automatic, you can normally tell by if it's a one-way side road. I find those are normally automatic, as the green man defaults to green, only changing to let vehicles out of the side road. My example is the junction of Gloucester Street and Route de la Libération in Jersey. Gloucester Street is one way and the minor phase at low-demand, so I believe the crossing across Gloucester Street always stays green unless a car wants to leave it.

Can't think of any other situation where the lights are permanently automatically green (i.e. the button will always be useless), maybe some examples based on turn restrictions?
Hmm, this is Jersey, where they can set their own rules for traffic signals, and do. They omit the red+amber phase of the light sequence, for one thing. So there's every possibility that this is a local quirk.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Bryn666 »

pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21 In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.
In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
The presence of tactiles is a permanent feature of both types of crossing.

However, signal crossings are prone to failure, the cones don't always work, the signals themselves can break, which renders the crossing useless for vulnerable groups. The puffin at the end of my road has experience three all-out failure conditions in the last 2 months. The beeps don't mean everyone has actually stopped for you either.

If a belisha beacon fails, the legal requirements of the crossing remain - the pedestrian can step out and assert a priority over moving traffic regardless. This isn't the case at a puffin crossing as drivers don't stop for someone waiting to cross like they usually do with a zebra crossing.

I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by pjr10th »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38
pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21 In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.
Yes, I would like to see that implemented as well. Would be a nice addition in a lot of situations.

In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
The presence of tactiles is a permanent feature of both types of crossing.

However, signal crossings are prone to failure, the cones don't always work, the signals themselves can break, which renders the crossing useless for vulnerable groups. The puffin at the end of my road has experience three all-out failure conditions in the last 2 months. The beeps don't mean everyone has actually stopped for you either.

If a belisha beacon fails, the legal requirements of the crossing remain - the pedestrian can step out and assert a priority over moving traffic regardless. This isn't the case at a puffin crossing as drivers don't stop for someone waiting to cross like they usually do with a zebra crossing.

I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by pjr10th »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:37
pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:33
Gareth wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 16:42
Very few are genuinely automatic. It's usually just that the green man runs with a vehicle movement which always has plenty of vehicles throughout the day triggering the stage. Go to the same site in the early hours of the morning and if there are no or few cars and you should find the button makes a difference.
It should be noted that while most won't be automatic, you can normally tell by if it's a one-way side road. I find those are normally automatic, as the green man defaults to green, only changing to let vehicles out of the side road. My example is the junction of Gloucester Street and Route de la Libération in Jersey. Gloucester Street is one way and the minor phase at low-demand, so I believe the crossing across Gloucester Street always stays green unless a car wants to leave it.

Can't think of any other situation where the lights are permanently automatically green (i.e. the button will always be useless), maybe some examples based on turn restrictions?
Hmm, this is Jersey, where they can set their own rules for traffic signals, and do. They omit the red+amber phase of the light sequence, for one thing. So there's every possibility that this is a local quirk.
I meant it more to illustrate a situation where a pedestrian light might be permanently green, unless called otherwise. If the same road layout were located in the UK, I would imagine it would operate in the same way (though as you note with red-amber phases for motorists and probably with nearsides nowadays as well).
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
I've got just the thing! It's called the Panda Crossing :D
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Pilgrim Dan »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38
pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21 In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.
In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
The presence of tactiles is a permanent feature of both types of crossing.

However, signal crossings are prone to failure, the cones don't always work, the signals themselves can break, which renders the crossing useless for vulnerable groups. The puffin at the end of my road has experience three all-out failure conditions in the last 2 months. The beeps don't mean everyone has actually stopped for you either.

If a belisha beacon fails, the legal requirements of the crossing remain - the pedestrian can step out and assert a priority over moving traffic regardless. This isn't the case at a puffin crossing as drivers don't stop for someone waiting to cross like they usually do with a zebra crossing.

I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
Something like a Panda crossing then?
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 13:53
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
I've got just the thing! It's called the Panda Crossing :D
Yes, it is kind of inspired by that, minus all the drivel of pulsating lights and triangular road markings. Simplicity is key!
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Bryn666 »

Pilgrim Dan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 14:03
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38
pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34

In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
The presence of tactiles is a permanent feature of both types of crossing.

However, signal crossings are prone to failure, the cones don't always work, the signals themselves can break, which renders the crossing useless for vulnerable groups. The puffin at the end of my road has experience three all-out failure conditions in the last 2 months. The beeps don't mean everyone has actually stopped for you either.

If a belisha beacon fails, the legal requirements of the crossing remain - the pedestrian can step out and assert a priority over moving traffic regardless. This isn't the case at a puffin crossing as drivers don't stop for someone waiting to cross like they usually do with a zebra crossing.

I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
Something like a Panda crossing then?
Yes, but without the needless complications that only the Ministry of Transport could bring to proceedings.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by FosseWay »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38
pjr10th wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21 In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.
In what way are zebras more accessible? I though signal crossings were more accessible as they had the audible bleep and rotating cone for visually impaired pedestrians to use.
The presence of tactiles is a permanent feature of both types of crossing.

However, signal crossings are prone to failure, the cones don't always work, the signals themselves can break, which renders the crossing useless for vulnerable groups. The puffin at the end of my road has experience three all-out failure conditions in the last 2 months. The beeps don't mean everyone has actually stopped for you either.

If a belisha beacon fails, the legal requirements of the crossing remain - the pedestrian can step out and assert a priority over moving traffic regardless. This isn't the case at a puffin crossing as drivers don't stop for someone waiting to cross like they usually do with a zebra crossing.

I have long been an advocate of replacing the puffin with a hybrid crossing - there should be no green lights at standalone pedestrian signal controlled crossings; it should be a permanent flashing amber in the green aspect location, meaning drivers should give way to a waiting pedestrian (as per a zebra). Pushing the button changes the crossing to red and gives an absolute priority to pedestrians. If the signals fail, it reverts to behaving like a zebra and is therefore always reassurance to vulnerable pedestrians that they can cross in relative safety.
On the right kind of road, zebras are also more user friendly for both pedestrians and drivers. A pedestrian can expect to be able to use the crossing more or less when they reach it (though obviously taking a look to make sure no inobservant muppets are approaching is highly recommended). They don't have to stand and wait for it to go green. Moreover, for as long as they're on the crossing, they have priority, and drivers generally respect this far more than they do pedestrians who are still crossing when a pelican goes green for cars. A driver only has to stop for pedestrians when there actually are pedestrians there, not for red lights with no-one crossing.

IMV the UK should also go over to the equivalent of zebra crossings for bikes where bike lanes need to cross traffic at places other than junctions that are signalised anyway. The same arguments apply as above for both cyclists and drivers, and it also removes the problem often encountered with push-button cycle crossings where you've got to go so far forward in order to reach the button that (a) you can't then see the lights and (b) you are technically committing an offence because your front wheel is over the stop line. Some of the ones here require gorilla arms to operate.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Steven »

avtur wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 18:54 I know there are many 'road professionals' on the forum, but from what I can make out membership extends beyond those professionals to include many other, like myself, who are not involved on professional management of our roads, but for our own reasons have a particular interest in road related matters and so we are members here.

With the greatest respect to all involved could I make a comment about the use of acronyms. I was always taught that unless you were 100% certain you were addressing an audience where you could be certain that acronyms would be commonly understood then at first use of any acronym you should use the full wording, with the acronym appended, and then in all subsequent uses the acronym would be used on its own.

I am finding this topic of this thread very interesting but I'm somewhat lost as to the use of acronyms that have been used.
Have you thought of looking on the SABRE Wiki for an explanation? MOVA and SCOOT are definitely explained, and if there's any others that you're missing, then please say and perhaps someone could add them
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From the SABRE Wiki: MOVA :

Microprocessor Optimised Vehicle Actuation (MOVA) is an adaptive traffic control system developed to overcome some of the problems associated with more traditional systems of vehicle-actuated traffic signal control. It is very similar in its operation to SCOOT except that it is intended more for isolated or small linked networks of junctions.


Since WWII, Vehicle Actuation (VA) had become the standard form of traffic light control at isolated junctions in the UK.

... Read More
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

AndyB wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 19:32 MOVA is vehicle-actuated, usually by diamond-shaped loops in the road in advance. It runs traffic lights according to what's on approach unless there is a loop failure, in which case it reverts to fixed timings.

SCOOT has square loops on the exit of the junction, and measures how many vehicles have just gone that way. It runs traffic lights on a coordinated basis according to how it thinks it can keep traffic moving best through the system, depending on what there is room for. If there are no particular problems, they revert to fixed timings.

A professional can tell you what they actually stand for, but that's what they mean.
On the topic of control, I wonder why is MOVA used at pedestrian crossings nowadays. I understand if it's at a junction, but at a pedestrian crossing, simple VA in my opinion would suffice.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by tom66 »

I remember this phenomenon as a kid. The road near me had heavy "convoying", so if you wanted to cross quickly, you'd wait for a gap of traffic about 5 seconds long. That happened often enough and the lights would turn instantly. But if you misjudged it, you'd have to wait 60 or so seconds for it to change. It became a strategy, especially if you thought you might be late for the bus!

I remember it was a SIEMENS system (the same one is probably still installed).
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by L.J.D »

These are appalling for it. They also don't even change when there's nothing there. They are rigged to the junction and only go red when the junction goes red. Convenient for road vehicles yes but awful if your a pedestrian or cyclist and wanting to cross and regardless if there's anything coming you can't cross anyway due to the blind corner and not been able to see what's coming around it. So you've got to wait a while.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by pjr10th »

I'm no engineer, but surely there's a way for the road sensors to track the average vehicle throughput. I don't mind it when it allows an already oncoming stream of traffic to clear, but at busier times you might get one stream come from one direction then one from another and then another from the first one, really extending the pedestrian waiting time.

If it seems that vehicles will be stopped regardless of how long it makes the pedestrian wait, it would then be able to just automatically let the pedestrians across straight away. And maybe a weather sensor as well? Let pedestrians across quicker when it's raining. Please.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

L.J.D wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 13:46 These are appalling for it. They also don't even change when there's nothing there. They are rigged to the junction and only go red when the junction goes red. Convenient for road vehicles yes but awful if your a pedestrian or cyclist and wanting to cross and regardless if there's anything coming you can't cross anyway due to the blind corner and not been able to see what's coming around it. So you've got to wait a while.
It's not even formally a Puffin crossing, as there are no zig zags, and it's linked to the junction. What I'd suggest is for it to be turned into an actual puffin crossing, and linked in such a way that the light will stay green if traffic would have to stop in between the crossing and the junction, and otherwise would work as normal.
Last edited by WhiteBlueRed on Wed Feb 02, 2022 15:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by WhiteBlueRed »

pjr10th wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 13:50 I'm no engineer, but surely there's a way for the road sensors to track the average vehicle throughput. I don't mind it when it allows an already oncoming stream of traffic to clear, but at busier times you might get one stream come from one direction then one from another and then another from the first one, really extending the pedestrian waiting time.

If it seems that vehicles will be stopped regardless of how long it makes the pedestrian wait, it would then be able to just automatically let the pedestrians across straight away. And maybe a weather sensor as well? Let pedestrians across quicker when it's raining. Please.
In the first case, when the maximum time has been reached (with VA), the light will change. But the max time is often set high, so it might take a while.
With MOVA, instead of a maximum time, a "performance index" is generated based on delay and stops saved minus delay and stops to traffic with a red light. If the index is positive, the green is extended, and if it's negative or 0, the lights change. I'm sure it still has a maximum green/cycle time, which exists to prevent undue delay to pedestrians.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by traffic-light-man »

WhiteBlueRed wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:44 On the topic of control, I wonder why is MOVA used at pedestrian crossings nowadays. I understand if it's at a junction, but at a pedestrian crossing, simple VA in my opinion would suffice.
MOVA has its advantages at high speed sites over traditional VA with SDE or SA (speed discrimination or speed assessment), it's also faster to react than VA in general and it allows for linked MOVA strategies, but on the whole, I don't see VA as an issue at 'low speed' sites assuming the max times are appropriate. Having said that, we're starting to see some pretty clever stuff done with MOVA at pedestrian crossings and it has advantages for pedestrians.

I believe Leeds now has some sites where MOVA special conditioning is allowing it to change its vehicle max times and green man times based on saturation levels of both pedestrians and vehicles, as well as allowing bus priority and HGV priority to play into the mix if it needs to, which is all built on top of a policy driven maximum wait of 25 seconds for a pedestrian. There's much more to it than that, but they're the highlights. It's early days, but I think it's a move in the right direction, particularly where there's several factors to weigh up.

Admittedly, there's benefits from that method that can be (and have been) implemented at VA sites, however it's just impossible to get anywhere near that level of response out of VA because it's, well, not MOVA.
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