Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

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Peter350
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Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Peter350 »

In recent years, It’s become more apparent to me that whenever you push the button at a puffin crossing, the lights only change once all vehicular traffic is clear of the crossing. For instance if there was no traffic, the pedestrian green phase would begin almost immediately, but if there was a big queue of traffic, you could be waiting half a minute or so before the lights change in your favour.

While I understand such a measure may be in place for safety reasons (to avoid vehicles having to make an emergency stop when the lights go red after the point of no return), surely it removes the incentive for pedestrians to press the button in the first place as they can just cross whenever it’s clear. If a pedestrian crossing is only going to work when there’s no traffic, what’s the point of having the crossing in the first place?
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by multiraider2 »

I thought that, to a certain extent, even pelican crossings did that in the past.

I'm no road engineer or even traffic signals expert, but have been pressing the buttons on pedestrian crossings since I were a lad and have been a keen observer of all things that pass me by. My unscientific observations lead me to believe that if there was a gap in the traffic, the lights would generally go red much more quickly than if there were no such gap. My guesswork being that if there was nothing setting off an induction loop on either side, the lights would "see" the gap and failing that, that some sort of timing ensured there would be a red light/green man after a set period. As I say, based on childhood and later observations.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by fras »

It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by traffic-light-man »

These days, signalised crossings will typically run a form of vehicle actuation (VA or MOVA) using detection, which will ultimately seek to identify a gap before changing, unless the max time is hit in which case it will force a change. The general school of thought is that waiting for the gap is safer, but of course if they max-out, there's a likelihood they'll change in front of an approaching vehicle anyway. They can be configured to have a different vehicle-to-ped intergreens depending on whether they've gapped-off or hit the max time, which counteracts that problem. There's also what is essentially a vehicle minimum, so that following a full cycle, it won't return to the pedestrian stage until that time has expired.

It's worth noting that as well as the local timings, you might also have an external influence at play, such as CLF, UTC, SCOOT or a local link, which will generally inhibit the crossing until it's given a 'window' of opportunity to change if there's a demand for it. Sometimes this will completely override any local detection (e.g. SCOOT), or it will simply inhibit the crossing from changing for a period of time (e.g. a local link).
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:22 These days, signalised crossings will typically run a form of vehicle actuation (VA or MOVA) using detection, which will ultimately seek to identify a gap before changing, unless the max time is hit in which case it will force a change. The general school of thought is that waiting for the gap is safer, but of course if they max-out, there's a likelihood they'll change in front of an approaching vehicle anyway. They can be configured to have a different vehicle-to-ped intergreens depending on whether they've gapped-off or hit the max time, which counteracts that problem. There's also what is essentially a vehicle minimum, so that following a full cycle, it won't return to the pedestrian stage until that time has expired.
Which explains why so many pedestrians press the button but cross as soon as a safe gap in the traffic occurs - leaving the lights to stop the next convoy of traffic despite no pedestrians waiting to cross.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Isleworth1961 »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
I used one such crossing almost every weekday for over 10 years. If I just stood there and waited without pressing the button, most times someone would come up and press it in an impatient manner, often with a sigh and a tut because I hadn't pressed it. I usually told them that all pressing the button did was to illuminate the 'wait', and usually got a strange look in return. I had quickly learnt the lights phases, and when I arrived at the crossing I could always tell if I'd have to wait 20 seconds or three minutes, and accepted that there was nothing I could do to change it.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by MotorwayGuy »

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4585293 ... 384!8i8192

This crossing despite being located on a very busy road is probably the only one in the borough to retain the original Mellor equipment. It changes as soon as the button is pressed and there is a then a delay of around 15 seconds if it is pressed again once it turns green. Most of the newer crossings take longer than that to change on the first press and it is ridiculous.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by multiraider2 »

Isleworth1961 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 21:59
fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
I used one such crossing almost every weekday for over 10 years. If I just stood there and waited without pressing the button, most times someone would come up and press it in an impatient manner, often with a sigh and a tut because I hadn't pressed it. I usually told them that all pressing the button did was to illuminate the 'wait', and usually got a strange look in return. I had quickly learnt the lights phases, and when I arrived at the crossing I could always tell if I'd have to wait 20 seconds or three minutes, and accepted that there was nothing I could do to change it.
The converse is also true though. Many people are used to pedestrian phases of traffic signals where there is indeed no difference if the button is pressed or not. But that leads some of them to just stand and stare at pedestrian only crossings at which you will never get a green man unless you press it. And yes, I do, give them a stare or a tut.

A particular favourite for this is here outside London Bridge station. I use that most days I'm working and it's often not pressed. Of course cyclists fly down the hill and many don't stop, weaving between the pedestrians. But that's met with more than tuts from me and is for other threads.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Isleworth1961 »

multiraider2 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 09:43
Isleworth1961 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 21:59
fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
I used one such crossing almost every weekday for over 10 years. If I just stood there and waited without pressing the button, most times someone would come up and press it in an impatient manner, often with a sigh and a tut because I hadn't pressed it. I usually told them that all pressing the button did was to illuminate the 'wait', and usually got a strange look in return. I had quickly learnt the lights phases, and when I arrived at the crossing I could always tell if I'd have to wait 20 seconds or three minutes, and accepted that there was nothing I could do to change it.
The converse is also true though. Many people are used to pedestrian phases of traffic signals where there is indeed no difference if the button is pressed or not. But that leads some of them to just stand and stare at pedestrian only crossings at which you will never get a green man unless you press it. And yes, I do, give them a stare or a tut.

A particular favourite for this is here outside London Bridge station. I use that most days I'm working and it's often not pressed. Of course cyclists fly down the hill and many don't stop, weaving between the pedestrians. But that's met with more than tuts from me and is for other threads.
Most of the people I encountered at my regular crossing were at a time of day when most people were on their way to or from work, so they too would probably be using the crossing every day, so they ought to have been familiar with it.
At my local pedestrian-only crossing (which always changes promptly), what I have noticed in Covid times is people leaving it for others to press the button, so they don't have to touch it - yet they often stand right next to it too. I've also seen, from a distance, some people stand there on their own for quite a long while until there's a gap in the traffic, then they run across the road...
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by skiddaw05 »

multiraider2 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 09:43 The converse is also true though. Many people are used to pedestrian phases of traffic signals where there is indeed no difference if the button is pressed or not. But that leads some of them to just stand and stare at pedestrian only crossings at which you will never get a green man unless you press it. And yes, I do, give them a stare or a tut.
On the other hand I'm one of those fools who stands there and jabs the button even though the 'wait' light is already illuminated. Like it's going to speed it up or something...
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Big L »

skiddaw05 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 13:00
multiraider2 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 09:43 The converse is also true though. Many people are used to pedestrian phases of traffic signals where there is indeed no difference if the button is pressed or not. But that leads some of them to just stand and stare at pedestrian only crossings at which you will never get a green man unless you press it. And yes, I do, give them a stare or a tut.
On the other hand I'm one of those fools who stands there and jabs the button even though the 'wait' light is already illuminated. Like it's going to speed it up or something...
Do you do the same with lift buttons that are already illuminated?
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by jervi »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:30 Which explains why so many pedestrians press the button but cross as soon as a safe gap in the traffic occurs - leaving the lights to stop the next convoy of traffic despite no pedestrians waiting to cross.
Modern crossings can detect whether there are people still waiting to cross, and cancel the crossing request if it notices that no-one is waiting (either because they crossed already, or just walked off). Had my first signal cancel on me last week at a very recently refurbished junction (less than a week old), so had to press the button again.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Gareth »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:05 It's worse a junctions controlled by traffic lights ! In many cases, pressing the pedestrian button does nothing, as the pedestrian crossing is automatically switched as part of the program.
Very few are genuinely automatic. It's usually just that the green man runs with a vehicle movement which always has plenty of vehicles throughout the day triggering the stage. Go to the same site in the early hours of the morning and if there are no or few cars and you should find the button makes a difference.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Isleworth1961 »

jervi wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 14:19
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 19:30 Which explains why so many pedestrians press the button but cross as soon as a safe gap in the traffic occurs - leaving the lights to stop the next convoy of traffic despite no pedestrians waiting to cross.
Modern crossings can detect whether there are people still waiting to cross, and cancel the crossing request if it notices that no-one is waiting (either because they crossed already, or just walked off). Had my first signal cancel on me last week at a very recently refurbished junction (less than a week old), so had to press the button again.
I've had that too - pressed the button (on the right), then stepped away to the left (as that was the direction I wanted to go after crossing), looked back and saw the 'wait' light had gone out. No other person was stood on my side waiting to cross, and those on the other side stood on their left too, so we didn't clash when crossing, so none of us were stood near the button...
I suppose it also foils the kids too, when they press the buttons when passing all the crossings...
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Gareth »

That can be really annoying though.

As for signals waiting for a gap in traffic, it makes sense up to a point (btw, it's not a new thing and Pelicans often do it too). The problem sometimes, I feel, is that the max waiting time before a force change can be too long. I can't be the only one who's said to someone in their company "let's cross at the lights" and they've replied "nah, it's no quicker". They're often not wrong, either.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Chris5156 »

Big L wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 13:42
skiddaw05 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 13:00
multiraider2 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 09:43 The converse is also true though. Many people are used to pedestrian phases of traffic signals where there is indeed no difference if the button is pressed or not. But that leads some of them to just stand and stare at pedestrian only crossings at which you will never get a green man unless you press it. And yes, I do, give them a stare or a tut.
On the other hand I'm one of those fools who stands there and jabs the button even though the 'wait' light is already illuminated. Like it's going to speed it up or something...
Do you do the same with lift buttons that are already illuminated?
I used to work in a building where the lifts had a feature where you could press a lit button three times to cancel it - so if you hit the wrong button or changed your mind you could cancel the request to call at a particular floor or to call the lift to your location. It soon taught you not to jab it repeatedly once it had been pressed!
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by AndyB »

In most lifts I have used, pressing a floor button has the same effect as pressing the door close button if it’s present.

This topic comes up on SABRE from time to time, and I’ve therefore said this before, but if a vehicle reaches a stop line at a pedestrian crossing without another one reaching the first MOVA loop, then the lights should change immediately.

In the 80s and 90s, pelicans which hadn’t changed for a while did exactly that, and it means pedestrians are more likely to wait for the lights to change. If a crossing only activates when it would be safe to cross using the Green Cross Code, the programming is incorrect.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by Bryn666 »

The idea of pedestrian crossings waiting for a gap in traffic is the classic car-centric nonsense planning we're trying to undo.

If a crossing is busy enough to warrant signals in the first place then there is not going to be a gap in traffic. If there were plenty of gaps in traffic, then the crossing would function better if it was a zebra. In fact, we should be using zebras far more, they are much more accessible and don't require you to press buttons to operate safely.

Where signal crossings are used, there really should be no longer than 6 seconds to wait from pressing the button - that's plenty of time for drivers to react to an amber (which shows for 3 seconds). Anything longer than 10 seconds and people will just contemplate walking out regardless.

In Blackburn we actually removed a small number of pelican crossings that caused mayhem with adjacent junctions or were otherwise life expired, they are now zebras, one is a pedestrian refuge because it's about 50 metres from a new signalised junction with full toucan facilities. It remains to be seen what will happen with the ancient kit throughout Darwen on the A666 - probably nothing as the people in charge of highways now know nothing about their role judging by the utter dreck that has been appearing in the last 3 years.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by traffic-light-man »

AndyB wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 21:53if a vehicle reaches a stop line at a pedestrian crossing without another one reaching the first MOVA loop, then the lights should change immediately.
That's what MOVA will do if it's validated properly. In fact, it can still change even after a vehicle has passed the IN loop (if there is one, of course), depending on its arrival at the X.
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 17:21Where signal crossings are used, there really should be no longer than 6 seconds to wait from pressing the button - that's plenty of time for drivers to react to an amber (which shows for 3 seconds). Anything longer than 10 seconds and people will just contemplate walking out regardless.
I generally agree with this. One that absolutely drove me to insanity when I lived in Liverpool city centre was this dual pelican, which I unfortunately had to use regularly. I presume it runs on SCOOT, so there's little surprise in its operation, but it felt like a good minute or so would pass before it changed, irrespective of approaching traffic. Typically, when it did eventually change, you had normally had chance to cross due to the gaps anyway.

I believe Leeds are mixing things up a bit with regards to crossings outside the city centre area. If I recall correctly, they're using pre-timed maxes so that the max times run from the vehicle green appearing rather than the pedestrian demand being received, and they're also trying MOVA special conditioning to vary the maxset time based on the saturation levels of all users, so the wait can be from as little as 5 seconds (just the leaving amber and all red), but with a max of something like 20 seconds possible in the heaviest vehicle/lowest pedestrian flows.

I also agree with the use of Zebras on the whole, particularly now that the parallel Zebra is gaining traction. I'm seeing too many signalised crossings in traffic calmed 20mph 'streets' these days for my liking, though of course they're usually linked to nearby development, so it comes as little surprise.
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Re: Why do many puffin crossings wait until there is no traffic before going red?

Post by avtur »

I know there are many 'road professionals' on the forum, but from what I can make out membership extends beyond those professionals to include many other, like myself, who are not involved on professional management of our roads, but for our own reasons have a particular interest in road related matters and so we are members here.

With the greatest respect to all involved could I make a comment about the use of acronyms. I was always taught that unless you were 100% certain you were addressing an audience where you could be certain that acronyms would be commonly understood then at first use of any acronym you should use the full wording, with the acronym appended, and then in all subsequent uses the acronym would be used on its own.

I am finding this topic of this thread very interesting but I'm somewhat lost as to the use of acronyms that have been used.
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