Signage Rethinks

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AndyB
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by AndyB »

jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32
Bomag wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:11
danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
Before the M25 this may be correct but since then (and definitely by the early 90's) its not the most important destination. Where there is a need for signing as a primary destination (M25 area), other primary destinations both in and out of Greater London are nearly always a better way finding options (as well as being the destination of the majority of the traffic). At locations remote from the M25 the use of 'London' reduces the number of primary destinations on an ADS which could improve local way finding.

The use of 'London' is not prohibited, but is used as a widespread alternative to better signing. The examples in this thread show how badly area teams / LHA signing policy has left us. Given the policies of the Mayor it's becoming even less relevant as signed destination for a large percentage of vehicular traffic.
Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?

While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
Oh, beautifully put.

It’s exactly the same as you approach Comber, a small town about seven miles from where I live.

Comber is a primary destination, in fact it is the target primary destination in both directions on its Trunk Road, because nobody in their right mind would use it to travel to end to end unless they needed to get their head showered by driving the long way round.

Comber town centre is on a non-primary road. Its by-pass, formed by part of the A21 and part of the A22, crosses the built up area in two places.

As soon as the A21 reaches the by-pass, the forward destination becomes Belfast and Downpatrick. As soon as the A22 reaches the by-pass, the forward destination becomes Newtownards, Bangor, Killyleagh and Downpatrick. Motorists told to drive to Downpatrick via Comber have the intelligence not to go through the town centre unless they have either business in the town centre or the head staggers.

Every town and city with a by-pass, throughpass or suburban ring road is exactly the same. The signs from the previous towns point to the centre of the conurbation, and through traffic is diverted via the ring road or bypass at the relevant decision point.

Signing policy is already that when you reach the outside of a conurbation, you have arrived. If you’re somewhere in Greater Manchester, do you find signs for Manchester or do you find signs for City centre?

And so it should be for London. Sign London until you reach the M25, being for all practical purposes the perimeter road of the conurbation that is Greater London, and then, just as you would in any other conurbation, sign through traffic away and choose a suitable target primary destination for traffic continuing towards central London.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Steven »

AndyB wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 20:17 And so it should be for London. Sign London until you reach the M25, being for all practical purposes the perimeter road of the conurbation that is Greater London, and then, just as you would in any other conurbation, sign through traffic away and choose a suitable target primary destination for traffic continuing towards central London.
One thing I will say here is be careful when you use the term "conurbation" when you actually mean "city", as in a single functional entity.

We do have a number of multi-centred conurbations for which this just doesn't work; but it does work for places that function as a single city, like London.
AndyB wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 20:17 Signing policy is already that when you reach the outside of a conurbation, you have arrived. If you’re somewhere in Greater Manchester, do you find signs for Manchester or do you find signs for City centre?
You see signs for "Manchester" across wide parts of the conurbation, as Greater Manchester contains a collection of other towns as well as Manchester itself.

Outside Manchester itself, you'll see signage for "Manchester city centre" or "Manchester (C)" as an unqualified "City centre" is confusing with the presence of the City of Salford just across the River Irwell. This is an example of such signage in Salford.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Bryn666 »

Steven wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 23:02
AndyB wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 20:17 And so it should be for London. Sign London until you reach the M25, being for all practical purposes the perimeter road of the conurbation that is Greater London, and then, just as you would in any other conurbation, sign through traffic away and choose a suitable target primary destination for traffic continuing towards central London.
One thing I will say here is be careful when you use the term "conurbation" when you actually mean "city", as in a single functional entity.

We do have a number of multi-centred conurbations for which this just doesn't work; but it does work for places that function as a single city, like London.
AndyB wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 20:17 Signing policy is already that when you reach the outside of a conurbation, you have arrived. If you’re somewhere in Greater Manchester, do you find signs for Manchester or do you find signs for City centre?
You see signs for "Manchester" across wide parts of the conurbation, as Greater Manchester contains a collection of other towns as well as Manchester itself.

Outside Manchester itself, you'll see signage for "Manchester city centre" or "Manchester (C)" as an unqualified "City centre" is confusing with the presence of the City of Salford just across the River Irwell. This is an example of such signage in Salford.
There are one or two "city centre" signs in Salford that appear to be referring to Salford itself but it's very hard to differentiate. Politically it's two city centres split by the Irwell but to anyone not familiar with the area everything inside the MSIRR gets treated as a single "city centre".
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by AndyB »

Fair enough! Belfast still signs Belfast in Dundonald and definitely signs Belfast in Newtownabbey, but they're outside the City council area.

I suppose the key is what destination is going to be most easily understood by strategic traffic. Given a choice between London, Croydon and the M25, I don't think Croydon or the M25 will cut mustard.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Bomag »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 19:27
Bomag wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 16:09 For over 20 year, since I was project engineer for LPRS, I have been evangelical in providing illumination to others on the many bad practices in signing strategy, both within and outside the M25. I will tackle any 'Soapy Sam' on this issue.
Yes, but arguing the opposite of everyone else does not automatically make one right, otherwise I would never lose an argument in my life.

None of what you have argued appears to be backed up by any logical evidence based policy making, it is all seemingly based on academic theory which for all I can see is trying to be too clever for its own good. What you are actually arguing for, as demonstrated by the notion that "Birmingham shouldn't be signposted from Preston" is replacing direction signs with hyper-parochial localism which is not what direction signs were ever invented to provide. As someone who usually is quite on board with changes coming out of the DfT and someone who has a huge dislike for rogue sign designers, I personally have no idea what you are trying to achieve.

I can't be alone in saying I do not understand why you find the idea of using the largest conurbations in the UK as long distance targets problematic. If anything, the vague overreliance on named regions that do not correspond with a map of the UK is the bigger problem. At least "London" is a fixed entity, "The SOUTH" could be anywhere from Watford Gap down to Bournemouth and since we don't have a map showing where these regions start and end*, it's all open to interpretation.

I think, instead of hiding behind 20 glorious years of work on a project you have clearly failed to properly communicate to us mere plebs that have to work with the Traffic Signs Manual you might want to rethink why it's gathering so much hostile reaction.

I do not think any of the evidence based policy making we are supposed to do in government circles is being used correctly here at all because it certainly does not resonate with people that actually use the roads?

* I still will do this for free if you actually can't be bothered yourselves down in that there (M25), since saying London is verboten.
So your position is evidence based on UK conditions? To reiterate what I have said - as a primary destination on ADS (which is for destinations up to 40 miles-ish) 'London' is an extraneous option for most of the country. Within the south east it is often an imprecise option which should be the last option, in nearly all cases there is something better ('Central London' being the top of the list for many radial routes). The knowledge (or lack of) of UK geography in the general populations means that signs based on compass points is the option which has been chosen for target destinations. It produces less uncertainty; this partly comes out of the work well over 10 years ago about setting out the use of Super Primary target destinations (including London) for the SRN. Unfortunately the evidence from the testing showed that too many road users didn't know enough UK geography to reliably use super primaries and that compass points led to fewer people getting lost. It is likely that average member of Sabre has a much better knowledge of the location of towns and cities in the UK than average. The use of compass points does not align with the English administrative regions for good reason; they would require changes in target destination in really inconvenient places (also my proposed use of GODS OWN COUNTRY as a replacement for the NORTH /NORTH EAST was controversial). As I mentioned before in this thread the use of SOUTH EAST as a regional destination, possibly in a similar way to the way NORTH /NORTH EAST/ NORTH WEST is used would be a help. This gets back to the a post you seemed to have the vapours on - if you want LONDON/GREATER LONDON/ G LONDON as a regional target - as opposed to inappropriately using the primary destination 'London', either get DfT to change it or get a job there and then change it.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by hemsl »

Bomag wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 16:09 Sadiq Khan is the CEO of the Greater London Authority; the mayor of London looks to be a bloke called Vincent Keaveny. This just reflects the inconsistent use of 'London' .
For goodness' sake.

The Mayor of London is Sadiq Khan.
https://www.london.gov.uk/people/mayoral/sadiq-khan

The fact we cannot agree on this suggests everyone that is trying to change your opinion on the signing of "London" is wasting their time.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bomag wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 02:18 So your position is evidence based on UK conditions? To reiterate what I have said - as a primary destination on ADS (which is for destinations up to 40 miles-ish) 'London' is an extraneous option for most of the country.
Who the heck made up that 40 miles nonsense? Yes, within 40 miles, signing London is less than ideal in certain areas, but beyond it, it's treated like a super-destination by most people.

Hence signing it at Hook Moor, Alconbury, etc.

This smacks of, "We've made up this rule, therefore we must apply this rule universally, even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else."
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by jnty »

Bomag wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 02:18 This gets back to the a post you seemed to have the vapours on - if you want LONDON/GREATER LONDON/ G LONDON as a regional target - as opposed to inappropriately using the primary destination 'London', either get DfT to change it or get a job there and then change it.
What's your personal view here? Would you tolerate "LONDON" if it were (re?)-introduced, but not "London"?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Bomag »

jnty wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:42
Bomag wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 02:18 This gets back to the a post you seemed to have the vapours on - if you want LONDON/GREATER LONDON/ G LONDON as a regional target - as opposed to inappropriately using the primary destination 'London', either get DfT to change it or get a job there and then change it.
What's your personal view here? Would you tolerate "LONDON" if it were (re?)-introduced, but not "London"?
If you mean if Greater London was a regional destination (i.e. capitalised) as a sub set of the SOUTH - i.e you sign the SOUTH until there is a need to differentiate traffic flows then as long as it's not misused then I not going to second guess DfT. What should be avoided at all cost is to keep using 'London', as a primary destination, in places where there are more relevant primary destinations.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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nowster wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:55
Bomag wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 02:18 So your position is evidence based on UK conditions? To reiterate what I have said - as a primary destination on ADS (which is for destinations up to 40 miles-ish) 'London' is an extraneous option for most of the country.
Who the heck made up that 40 miles nonsense? Yes, within 40 miles, signing London is less than ideal in certain areas, but beyond it, it's treated like a super-destination by most people.

Hence signing it at Hook Moor, Alconbury, etc.

This smacks of, "We've made up this rule, therefore we must apply this rule universally, even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else."
That is the problem, London, is not a target, super primary, or super destination; it's a primary destination. As I mentioned, using cities as super primaries was shown to be less effective than compass points. If done properly Greater London as subset of the SOUTH would be workable and so would SOUTH EAST. Signing at Hook Moor was done to get traffic to use the DBFO M1, the percentage of traffic at that point going into London is less than 1%. Alconbury could have been signed using for x follow y under current guidance. The new (possible temporary) A14 signs on the A1(M) aren't even consistent in terms of order. May be a case for a proper review of regional destinations.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by nowster »

Bomag wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 13:35May be a case for a proper review of regional destinations.
Let's just have PARIS and Autres Directions? :lol:
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by jnty »

Bomag wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 13:35
nowster wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:55
Bomag wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 02:18 So your position is evidence based on UK conditions? To reiterate what I have said - as a primary destination on ADS (which is for destinations up to 40 miles-ish) 'London' is an extraneous option for most of the country.
Who the heck made up that 40 miles nonsense? Yes, within 40 miles, signing London is less than ideal in certain areas, but beyond it, it's treated like a super-destination by most people.

Hence signing it at Hook Moor, Alconbury, etc.

This smacks of, "We've made up this rule, therefore we must apply this rule universally, even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else."
traffic at that point going into London is less than 1%
What percentage of traffic is aiming to travel via its orbital motorway? Is the implicit assumption here still that 'London' is a useless destination for folk aiming for the M25?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bomag wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 13:35May be a case for a proper review of regional destinations.
Continental European here, and regional destinations confuse the hell out of me. Worst of all is The LAKES, but how can I explain to anyone the point on the M1 where The SOUTH is no longer signposted and the point on the M4 where The WEST becomes SOUTH WALES, when there is a significant piece of England to come? Oh, and The NORTH actually being the North East of Engerland, not nearly useful on the M1-M6 split let alone in bringing you to the real North ie Scotland if not Inverness or Aberdeen. So proper review - yes please.

But sooner rather than later you run into the fact that pretty much every country worldwide prefers major cities and cardinal directions over the names of regions. With the function of representing the region, not guiding traffic to the middle of town. It’s just incredibly difficult to signpost well on the basis of regions, as it is on the basis of neighboring states. Major cities give much more of an immediate recognition viz. route confirmation to people not familiar with the area in which they drive. If superprimary destinations were thought of as not working out well in England, I would myself have looked for ways to improve without throwing the entire system overboard in favor of regional destinations (where applicable) and never London for lack of a regional destination.

From there two observations:
1. How issues to properly guide traffic within Greater London should prevent signposting London from far outside the M25 is beyond me. By the time you reach the M25, the London is replaced by destinations within London and nobody will be surprised.
2. Does signposting London in addition to the first PD when you’re further out result in signs that are too full? Don’t think so. Unless you have The SOUTH and London, plus a regional destination somewhere in the next 40 miles. In which case I would remove the former for reason set out above. I also think that this gives a better overview of the road ahead than just the first two PDs or one PD and M25.

Now shoot me, folk in Whitehall, for daring to bring a continental perspective.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Osthagen »

Steven wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 19:29
Big L wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 19:14 You're not putting Liverpool or Manchester on any M6 signs then?
Nope, because the M6 doesn't go to either place, but Warrington serves as a sensible placeholder for both. Of course, you could just use "LANCASHIRE" as a regional destination for both... :stir:
Old post, but while I like your general drift rejigging signage and going with layered approach to primary destinations, I wouldn't say that a PD not being on (or even necessarily near to) a route should exclude it from appearing on signage along the route in question. On southbound signage on the French autoroute A75, Montpellier is signed as the super-control destination on ADSs and RCSs despite the fact that the road doesn't actually go there; it goes to Beziers (not signed until some way down the route), and Montpellier is accessible from the 20-mile spur A750 which splits from the A75 at Ceyras. On the southernmost 25 miles of the A75, the super-control city is Barcelona.

Then again, in the case of the M6, Preston makes quite a good placeholder, as traffic bound for Blackpool, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, etc, will all make decisions in that area.

France has quite a good system for signage on autoroutes. A common practice is for ADS signs to feature something to the tune of:
- the next control destination
- the next super-control destination
- the next super-control destination along a major adjoining route
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Chris56000 »

I have a solution!

You add "Major London Compass Directions" as follows approaching the M25, about 10 miles before :–

London (NW & W), London (N & NE), London (E & SE), London (S & SW)

Then about three miles before each M25 junction :–

London (NW & W) can have signs for Hendon, Watford, Harrow and Uxbridge ;

London (N & NE) can sign Enfield, Ilford and Romford ;

London (E & SE) can sign Dagenham, Dartford, Sidcup and Bromley ;

London (S and SW) can sign Croydon, Streatham, Kingston and Hammersmith ;

Once on the M25 you can subdivide, e.g. travelling clockwise from the M23 you can have "London (S and SW), Leatherhead (A243), Kingston (A3) Hammersmith (M3, A316),

then when you reach the M3 you have "London (NW and W), Staines (A30), Chiswick, Hammersmith (M4, A4), Uxbridge (M40), Harrow (A406) Hendon, (A41) Watford (M1)".

From the M4 junction you can have :–

"London (NW & N), Uxbridge (M40), Harrow (A406), Hendon (A41), Watford (M1), Hatfield, the NORTH (A1(M)), Enfield (A10)" ;

with the principle continued after the M40, M1, A1(M), A10, M11 and A12 junctions, etc !

This would need, I estimate about 16–20 post mounted signs with "London (SW and W)" on the top, followed by a suitable gap then "FOLLOW ROUTES FOR"

. . .then each primary destination on the subsequent lines with its road number !

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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Osthagen »

Chris56000 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 01:42 You add "Major London Compass Directions" as follows approaching the M25, about 10 miles before :–
As for signage on major ring-routes, the system employed on the M60 and A720, despite a few minor quibbles like the lack of signage to Newcastle on the A720, is very good; you have a chain of the major control destinations accessed by various other routes out of Manchester and Edinburgh respectively.

On the A720, you have signed the nearest/most relevant 5 or so of these major control destinations:
Berwick (for the A1)
Jedburgh (for the A68)
Galashiels (for the A7)
Carlisle (for the A702)
Kilmarnock (for the A71)
Glasgow (for the M8)
Stirling (for the M9)
Perth (for the M90)

A similar principle for the M60 with:
Bury (for the M66)
Leeds (for the M62 E)
Sheffield (for M67)
Airport/Chester (for M56)
Liverpool/Birmingham (for the M62 W)
Bolton/Preston (for the M61)

Now if a similar situation were to be employed on the M25, I would opt for the following control cities OUT of London:
Peterborough (for A1(M))
Cambridge (for M11)
Colchester (for A12)
Canterbury (for M2)
Dover (for M20)
Gatwick/Brighton (for M23)
Southampton (for M3)
Reading/Bristol (for M4)
Oxford/Birmingham (for M40)
Aylesbury (for A41)
Luton/Leicester (for M1)
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by jnty »

Osthagen wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:23 Kilmarnock (for the A71)
To completely ignore the substance of your (very good) point and focus on one detail, Kilmarnock has always struck me as a bizarre anachronism of a destination to sign for the A71. It would be interesting to know how many decades have passed since the best route to Kilmarnock was indeed the A71. I think West Calder is the furthest settlement of note from Edinburgh where under normal conditions you would prefer the A71 to the M8, and even then the M8 is probably the better option if you reach it first.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Chris Bertram »

IIRC Birmingham is signed via M56 from M60.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Monroads »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 09:21 IIRC Birmingham is signed via M56 from M60.
Birmingham is signed from Manchester City Centre down the A5103/M56/A556/M6 Route

Leeds/Sheffield/ Liverpool and Manchester all appear as destinations on the Manchester Inner Ring Road.

In Birmingham on the other hand all the Inner Ring Road destinations are regional (Walsall,Wolverhampton,Lichfield,Coventry etc)
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Re: Signage Rethinks

Post by Vierwielen »

Osthagen wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:23
Chris56000 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 01:42 You add "Major London Compass Directions" as follows approaching the M25, about 10 miles before :–
As for signage on major ring-routes, the system employed on the M60 and A720, despite a few minor quibbles like the lack of signage to Newcastle on the A720, is very good; you have a chain of the major control destinations accessed by various other routes out of Manchester and Edinburgh respectively.

On the A720, you have signed the nearest/most relevant 5 or so of these major control destinations:
Berwick (for the A1)
Jedburgh (for the A68)
Galashiels (for the A7)
Carlisle (for the A702)
Kilmarnock (for the A71)
Glasgow (for the M8)
Stirling (for the M9)
Perth (for the M90)

A similar principle for the M60 with:
Bury (for the M66)
Leeds (for the M62 E)
Sheffield (for M67)
Airport/Chester (for M56)
Liverpool/Birmingham (for the M62 W)
Bolton/Preston (for the M61)

Now if a similar situation were to be employed on the M25, I would opt for the following control cities OUT of London:
Peterborough (for A1(M))
Cambridge (for M11)
Colchester (for A12)
Canterbury (for M2)
Dover (for M20)
Gatwick/Brighton (for M23)
Southampton (for M3)
Reading/Bristol (for M4)
Oxford/Birmingham (for M40)
Aylesbury (for A41)
Luton/Leicester (for M1)
What about Guildford/Portsmouth for the A3?
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