Signage Rethinks

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Bryn666
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 Wow not quite how I envisaged this thread going, but very interesting nevertheless. I'm not a fan of the regional signs personally, I don't think they add much value for anyone whether you're familiar with the roads or not. Trying to put myself in a foreign drivers shoes, if I were driving off the ramp at Calais wanting to head to somewhere like Toulouse, 'LE SUD' might be enough to get me going in the vaguely correct direction, but I'm not sure it would be that much use to me.
A UK example......I don't like how the M3-A303 is signed as 'SOUTH WEST' from the M25 and then from M3 J8, HGV's should be taking M4-M5 to most urban centres in the South West region, not the A303.

I agree with Bryn on a couple of points..........the French are far more coherent with their signing practices. And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
We're back to the situation where nonsense like Brenzett was being signed off the M20 at Ashford because the A2070 ended there, rather than the more obvious Hastings (which is now correctly signed).

https://goo.gl/maps/PD58rk1FbhFSrseU6

Policymakers keep thinking direction signs in the UK are intended for local traffic that knows where it's going when they're not. No other country on earth leaps down this route thinking it's helpful so why again with the British exceptionalism?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:24
danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 Wow not quite how I envisaged this thread going, but very interesting nevertheless. I'm not a fan of the regional signs personally, I don't think they add much value for anyone whether you're familiar with the roads or not. Trying to put myself in a foreign drivers shoes, if I were driving off the ramp at Calais wanting to head to somewhere like Toulouse, 'LE SUD' might be enough to get me going in the vaguely correct direction, but I'm not sure it would be that much use to me.
A UK example......I don't like how the M3-A303 is signed as 'SOUTH WEST' from the M25 and then from M3 J8, HGV's should be taking M4-M5 to most urban centres in the South West region, not the A303.

I agree with Bryn on a couple of points..........the French are far more coherent with their signing practices. And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
We're back to the situation where nonsense like Brenzett was being signed off the M20 at Ashford because the A2070 ended there, rather than the more obvious Hastings (which is now correctly signed).

https://goo.gl/maps/PD58rk1FbhFSrseU6

Policymakers keep thinking direction signs in the UK are intended for local traffic that knows where it's going when they're not. No other country on earth leaps down this route thinking it's helpful so why again with the British exceptionalism?
Can we talk about what an unproductive use of space "International Stn" is?!
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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An example from the Greater Manchester area: the M62 eastbound from Croft does not sign Salford, even though that's the destination of the centreline of the motorway.

The forward destinations at J11 are Leeds, Bolton, Manchester.

At the J12 TOTSO, the "straight on" destinations are M'cr city centre and Salford.

Note that the M62 doesn't approach the centres of either Leeds or Bolton. You need to turn off to do that. (M621/M1 or M61/A666 respectively).

Leeds is acting as a proxy for the whole West Yorkshire conurbation.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:44 Can we talk about what an unproductive use of space "International Stn" is?!
If you wish. :idea: How about just sticking a National Rail or Eurostar logo on the sign?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 13:19
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:44 Can we talk about what an unproductive use of space "International Stn" is?!
If you wish. :idea: How about just sticking a National Rail or Eurostar logo on the sign?
Yeah, the national rail logo would be fine on its own with something like "Ashford Int'l" if really necessary. But if you're looking for it you probably know exactly what station it'll be referring to.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 13:32
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 13:19
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:44 Can we talk about what an unproductive use of space "International Stn" is?!
If you wish. :idea: How about just sticking a National Rail or Eurostar logo on the sign?
Yeah, the national rail logo would be fine on its own with something like "Ashford Int'l" if really necessary. But if you're looking for it you probably know exactly what station it'll be referring to.
You'll love these on the M6 then which could be any station in the West Midlands but actually refer to Birmingham International: https://goo.gl/maps/XeYYyrBAnH34fC5Z9

Oh, they also mention London........
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 14:55
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 13:32
the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 13:19

If you wish. :idea: How about just sticking a National Rail or Eurostar logo on the sign?
Yeah, the national rail logo would be fine on its own with something like "Ashford Int'l" if really necessary. But if you're looking for it you probably know exactly what station it'll be referring to.
You'll love these on the M6 then which could be any station in the West Midlands but actually refer to Birmingham International: https://goo.gl/maps/XeYYyrBAnH34fC5Z9

Oh, they also mention London........
Argh! Surely at that stage it's perfectly well signposted by the much less ambiguous airport and NEC destinations?

(In the same way that you might reasonably expect Ashford station to be in Ashford...)
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
Before the M25 this may be correct but since then (and definitely by the early 90's) its not the most important destination. Where there is a need for signing as a primary destination (M25 area), other primary destinations both in and out of Greater London are nearly always a better way finding options (as well as being the destination of the majority of the traffic). At locations remote from the M25 the use of 'London' reduces the number of primary destinations on an ADS which could improve local way finding.

The use of 'London' is not prohibited, but is used as a widespread alternative to better signing. The examples in this thread show how badly area teams / LHA signing policy has left us. Given the policies of the Mayor it's becoming even less relevant as signed destination for a large percentage of vehicular traffic.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bomag wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:11
danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
Before the M25 this may be correct but since then (and definitely by the early 90's) its not the most important destination. Where there is a need for signing as a primary destination (M25 area), other primary destinations both in and out of Greater London are nearly always a better way finding options (as well as being the destination of the majority of the traffic). At locations remote from the M25 the use of 'London' reduces the number of primary destinations on an ADS which could improve local way finding.

The use of 'London' is not prohibited, but is used as a widespread alternative to better signing. The examples in this thread show how badly area teams / LHA signing policy has left us. Given the policies of the Mayor it's becoming even less relevant as signed destination for a large percentage of vehicular traffic.
Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?

While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32 Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?

While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
I agree with this.

Personally I'm not a fan of signs that contain just road numbers and no destination names, like this one for example.
The sign is accurate, no problem there, but I think these kind of signs could do with destinations on them. I don't understand why the A46 Leicester Western Bypass doesn't ever carry Coventry as a destination at any of it's junctions. On the A46 Coventry Bypass, Leicester is signed as a destination from Tollbar End. Total lack of consistency.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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danfw194 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 16:05
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32 Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?

While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
I agree with this.

Personally I'm not a fan of signs that contain just road numbers and no destination names, like this one for example.
The sign is accurate, no problem there, but I think these kind of signs could do with destinations on them. I don't understand why the A46 Leicester Western Bypass doesn't ever carry Coventry as a destination at any of it's junctions. On the A46 Coventry Bypass, Leicester is signed as a destination from Tollbar End. Total lack of consistency.
Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable. I can probably count the number of times I've used the A9 to get to Inverness on one hand and I'm not sure I've ever used to to drive to Perth. I often go around Perth but am almost never heading via Inverness. However, when I'm rejoining it for whatever reason, I'm much more confident I'm getting on it in the right direction if I'm following a Perth or Inverness sign than I am following A9 (N) or A9 (S). (And I certainly wouldn't prefer Dunkeld or Pitlochry as destinations either, even if they might be the next ones along.)
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32
Bomag wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:11
danfw194 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 And also I too can't understand why people want to readily ditch London, it's absolutely the most important destination in the UK and should be treated as such.
Before the M25 this may be correct but since then (and definitely by the early 90's) its not the most important destination. Where there is a need for signing as a primary destination (M25 area), other primary destinations both in and out of Greater London are nearly always a better way finding options (as well as being the destination of the majority of the traffic). At locations remote from the M25 the use of 'London' reduces the number of primary destinations on an ADS which could improve local way finding.

The use of 'London' is not prohibited, but is used as a widespread alternative to better signing. The examples in this thread show how badly area teams / LHA signing policy has left us. Given the policies of the Mayor it's becoming even less relevant as signed destination for a large percentage of vehicular traffic.
Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?

While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
In the work done for the London Primary route resigning project in the 90's about 25-33% of the £30m a year lost due to poor way finding was due to the inconsistent and lax use of 'London' as a primary destination. As had previously mentioned it is perfectly OK to have secondary signs at ports or other major locations with for x follow y and in respect of Dover and the Tunnel there is thoughts about active VMS signing given Brock etc to manage traffic heading for the M25 and points west/north.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it?
That, and also the insistence that "London" is only useful for people whose destination is Central London. The idea that you might understand "London" as a wayfinding destination when your journey does not include a lap of Parliament Square, or that it might refer to the whole conurbation (which is how the word is understood by most people), apparently holds no weight.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 08:55
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it?
That, and also the insistence that "London" is only useful for people whose destination is Central London. The idea that you might understand "London" as a wayfinding destination when your journey does not include a lap of Parliament Square, or that it might refer to the whole conurbation (which is how the word is understood by most people), apparently holds no weight.
Yes, it does appear to be aligned with those people that insist that London just means the City of London; and can never be used to refer to anywhere else.

Can someone please remind me of the place that Sadiq Khan is currently the Mayor of, as if memory serves he has little or no power within the City? Because that can't possibly be London, can it?

I do not recall another topic on SABRE in all my years where there is such a massive disconnect between the membership (and almost certainly the population) at large and "because rules", even though the rules are different depending on exactly where you look.

However, I'd be interested in hearing comments about why, given it appears to be never appropriate to sign "London", why it's OK to sign "Birmingham" all the way from M6 J32 southwards? Surely the policy needs to be consistent?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Steven wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 09:28
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 08:55
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it?
That, and also the insistence that "London" is only useful for people whose destination is Central London. The idea that you might understand "London" as a wayfinding destination when your journey does not include a lap of Parliament Square, or that it might refer to the whole conurbation (which is how the word is understood by most people), apparently holds no weight.
Yes, it does appear to be aligned with those people that insist that London just means the City of London; and can never be used to refer to anywhere else.

Can someone please remind me of the place that Sadiq Khan is currently the Mayor of, as if memory serves he has little or no power within the City? Because that can't possibly be London, can it?
Until recently I lived in Ruislip.

I lived in the London Borough of Hillingdon. I was represented by a member of the Greater London Assembly. I elected, and lived under the jurisdiction of, the Mayor of London. If my house was on fire I'd call the London Fire Brigade and if it was broken into I'd call the Metropolitan Police. My landline phone dialling code was 020 for London. And so, if I was standing at a crossroads some fifty miles distant, and I saw a sign for London, I would understand that it was pointing towards the place I lived. Because I lived in London, and "London" is not "Central London".

To me the idea that "London" refers only to the statue of Charles I in Trafalgar Square, and nowhere else, on the basis that distances to London are measured to that point, is flawed thinking that fails to take into account the way that ordinary people understand an ordinary word. Any policy you then base on that assumption will be based on flawed thinking.
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 09:28I do not recall another topic on SABRE in all my years where there is such a massive disconnect between the membership (and almost certainly the population) at large and "because rules", even though the rules are different depending on exactly where you look.
Neither do I. And normally I'm happy with a seemingly counterintuitive system because, nine times out of ten, when it's explained to you, you go "ah" because the logic becomes clear and it makes sense after all. I've got a lengthy track record of trying to explain and defend such things on here. But this doesn't make sense. Every explanation just feels like an attempt to explain that black is white and up is down. I can't get behind it.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:40 To me the idea that "London" refers only to the statue of Charles I in Trafalgar Square...
Is that the original site of the Charing Cross?
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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nowster wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:30
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:40 To me the idea that "London" refers only to the statue of Charles I in Trafalgar Square...
Is that the original site of the Charing Cross?
Yes, seemingly so. The original was demolished centuries ago and the current cross, which stands in the forecourt of Charing Cross Station, is a later reimagining (says Wikipedia).

The statue of Charles I is now in the middle of the roundabout on the south side of Trafalgar Square and has a brass plaque set into the pavement on the north side of the pedestal, stating that it is the point to which all distances to London are measured. But it's only been so since 1951; prior to that the zero marker varied depending on where you were approaching from.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Steven wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 09:28
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 08:55
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it?
That, and also the insistence that "London" is only useful for people whose destination is Central London. The idea that you might understand "London" as a wayfinding destination when your journey does not include a lap of Parliament Square, or that it might refer to the whole conurbation (which is how the word is understood by most people), apparently holds no weight.
Yes, it does appear to be aligned with those people that insist that London just means the City of London; and can never be used to refer to anywhere else.

Can someone please remind me of the place that Sadiq Khan is currently the Mayor of, as if memory serves he has little or no power within the City? Because that can't possibly be London, can it?

I do not recall another topic on SABRE in all my years where there is such a massive disconnect between the membership (and almost certainly the population) at large and "because rules", even though the rules are different depending on exactly where you look.

However, I'd be interested in hearing comments about why, given it appears to be never appropriate to sign "London", why it's OK to sign "Birmingham" all the way from M6 J32 southwards? Surely the policy needs to be consistent?
Your points just reinforce the point that 'London', as a primary destination, is a less effective option as people consider 'London' to be different things. Some consider 'London' to be only central London, or the City of London; other see it as analogous as Greater London. It's much better to be specific and use 'Central London', a specific primary destination, or a regional destination, for the 90%+ of all cases where this would be more effective.

Sadiq Khan is the CEO of the Greater London Authority; the mayor of London looks to be a bloke called Vincent Keaveny. This just reflects the inconsistent use of 'London' .

As far as Birmingham at M6 J32, it should not be signed from there. The issue is why do we leave signing strategy to those who don't understand the detailed impact of doing it wrong.

While the 'rules' could be better framed to enable the most effective signing to be design more of the time, it does not negate the issue that received wisdom in this case is less effective than evidenced based decisions, going back nearly 30 years. For the avoidance of doubt while the over use of 'London' as a primary destination will not bring the world to an end, our roads would be better signed if its limitations were better understood.

As somebody said last week both Tony Blair and Thatcher were elected three times but now considered to be war criminals by a large percentage of the population (for Iraq/Belgrano), which is right?

For over 20 year, since I was project engineer for LPRS, I have been evangelical in providing illumination to others on the many bad practices in signing strategy, both within and outside the M25. I will tackle any 'Soapy Sam' on this issue.
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bomag wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 16:09 Sadiq Khan is the CEO of the Greater London Authority; the mayor of London looks to be a bloke called Vincent Keaveny. This just reflects the inconsistent use of 'London' .
Mayor or Lord Mayor of London (ie. The City)?
Bomag wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 16:09 As far as Birmingham at M6 J32, it should not be signed from there. The issue is why do we leave signing strategy to those who don't understand the detailed impact of doing it wrong.
Do we actually have a signing strategy that works in the real world, or is it just some academic exercise that is guaranteed to confuse the actual users?

If you ask anyone outside the Great Metropolis how they'd get from Birmingham to Folkestone they'd say "Follow signs for London until the M25 then go round it until there are signs for Dover or Folkestone".

The M25 wouldn't be the direction that folks would use but London would.

Remember that a dictionary documents actual usage. On the other hand the Académie Française dictates proper usage.

Of course, in these days of satellite navigation, do we really need signs any more? :twisted:
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Re: Signage Rethinks

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Bomag wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 16:09 For over 20 year, since I was project engineer for LPRS, I have been evangelical in providing illumination to others on the many bad practices in signing strategy, both within and outside the M25. I will tackle any 'Soapy Sam' on this issue.
Yes, but arguing the opposite of everyone else does not automatically make one right, otherwise I would never lose an argument in my life.

None of what you have argued appears to be backed up by any logical evidence based policy making, it is all seemingly based on academic theory which for all I can see is trying to be too clever for its own good. What you are actually arguing for, as demonstrated by the notion that "Birmingham shouldn't be signposted from Preston" is replacing direction signs with hyper-parochial localism which is not what direction signs were ever invented to provide. As someone who usually is quite on board with changes coming out of the DfT and someone who has a huge dislike for rogue sign designers, I personally have no idea what you are trying to achieve.

I can't be alone in saying I do not understand why you find the idea of using the largest conurbations in the UK as long distance targets problematic. If anything, the vague overreliance on named regions that do not correspond with a map of the UK is the bigger problem. At least "London" is a fixed entity, "The SOUTH" could be anywhere from Watford Gap down to Bournemouth and since we don't have a map showing where these regions start and end*, it's all open to interpretation.

I think, instead of hiding behind 20 glorious years of work on a project you have clearly failed to properly communicate to us mere plebs that have to work with the Traffic Signs Manual you might want to rethink why it's gathering so much hostile reaction.

I do not think any of the evidence based policy making we are supposed to do in government circles is being used correctly here at all because it certainly does not resonate with people that actually use the roads?

* I still will do this for free if you actually can't be bothered yourselves down in that there (M25), since saying London is verboten.
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