Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

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Rambo
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Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Rambo »

My question is: was there a time post worboys (perhaps 1980's / early 90's) when mass wholesale sign replacements occured?
Ok, i don't profess to be a signage expert however the reason i ask this is that when i'm out and about i often wonder what the age is of certain signs and i see a lot of pre 1994 regs signs that could well be knocking on 30+ years old today. But in a lot of cases these would have replaced earlier worboys signs which may not have been very old at the time. It seems early worboys signs (such as those dark green/ non retro-reflective backed) and older blue bordered signs seemed to get phased out very quickly in the 1980's and 1990's with a smattering hanging on in various places today. So why was this? Did the older 'early worboys' signs deteriorate more quickly?

Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
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Bryn666
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Bryn666 »

Rambo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:28 My question is: was there a time post worboys (perhaps 1980's / early 90's) when mass wholesale sign replacements occured?
Ok, i don't profess to be a signage expert however the reason i ask this is that when i'm out and about i often wonder what the age is of certain signs and i see a lot of pre 1994 regs signs that could well be knocking on 30+ years old today. But in a lot of cases these would have replaced earlier worboys signs which may not have been very old at the time. It seems early worboys signs (such as those dark green/ non retro-reflective backed) and older blue bordered signs seemed to get phased out very quickly in the 1980's and 1990's with a smattering hanging on in various places today. So why was this? Did the older 'early worboys' signs deteriorate more quickly?

Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
In a very quick nutshell:

Sign materials last longer today and are better performing, so wholesale replacements aren't as necessary. They still should be replaced every 15-20 years though but rarely are.
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Vierwielen
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Vierwielen »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:39 Sign materials last longer today and are better performing, so wholesale replacements aren't as necessary. They still should be replaced every 15-20 years though but rarely are.
Are those Gregorian years or HMG years? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Chris5156
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Chris5156 »

Rambo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:28Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
I've certainly read descriptions of things like this happening during the late 1980s. The reasoning being that the Thatcher government made a lot of money available for spending on roads, but their road building plans took time to gather speed, so there was a period where (on trunk roads especially) money was being spent on renewing signs, lighting etc. on assets that weren't necessarily life expired yet, simply because there was a lot of cash sloshing around for that sort of thing. How true it was, or how widespread it might have been, I don't know.
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by storeydesign »

I suppose the biggest wholesale signing schemes will still have been the London Primary Route schemes 1998 - 2001. I was the lead designer on 2 of the schemes. the Eastern scheme D & B with Parkman & Fitzpatricks, that was 2000+ ADS & DS, contract value was around £12million. Northwest Scheme with Parkman/Associated Ashphalt 1800+ ADS & DS contract value around £8 million. The third contract SE quadrant was D & B and ran into major financial issues.
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Bryn666
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Bryn666 »

storeydesign wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:04 I suppose the biggest wholesale signing schemes will still have been the London Primary Route schemes 1998 - 2001. I was the lead designer on 2 of the schemes. the Eastern scheme D & B with Parkman & Fitzpatricks, that was 2000+ ADS & DS, contract value was around £12million. Northwest Scheme with Parkman/Associated Ashphalt 1800+ ADS & DS contract value around £8 million. The third contract SE quadrant was D & B and ran into major financial issues.
It's very hard to find photos of London traffic signs in the 1990s but given it seems many of the mid 1960s GLC boxy backlit signs were still hanging on this late into proceedings it's no wonder it was such a mammoth task.

I actually find navigating London's "trunk" (for want of a better phrase to describe TfL's network) a lot easier than the boroughs, who seem to have never realised what a sign design program is, let alone what the rules are given everything looks like it was made in MS Paint on a Friday afternoon.

Blackburn of course is a shambles of direction signs because no one wanted to review them, and the last person that did was incompetent. So that was a win all round...
Bryn
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Nathan_A_RF
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

East Sussex County Council seemed to do some mass replacements of all signs along my local road a few months ago, along with many other roads in the county. All pristine and shiny new signs.
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Conekicker
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Conekicker »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 21:58
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:39 Sign materials last longer today and are better performing, so wholesale replacements aren't as necessary. They still should be replaced every 15-20 years though but rarely are.
Are those Gregorian years or HMG years? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
NHS years.

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2 hours later...

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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Chris56000 »

Hi!

Birmingham also carried out a major full major primary route direction sign replacement program on the A4540 and all the major radials, from about 2003 (The A4540 and the A456 from M5 J3 to Five Ways were the first two routes to be done) to about 2010, only trouble was, the new signs seemed to have an irresistible attraction to all the chavs and boy–racers, judging by the number that got bashed, knocked down or had whole chunks thieved from them shortly after they went up!!!!

The side–road signs meeting up with the newly–resigned routes weren't replaced until a much later stage in the process tho!

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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 20:50 It's very hard to find photos of London traffic signs in the 1990s but given it seems many of the mid 1960s GLC boxy backlit signs were still hanging on this late into proceedings it's no wonder it was such a mammoth task.
There were still a surprising number of pre-Worboys signs, on yellow backing boards, on London main roads into the 1990s. The South Circular seemed particularly prone to still have them.
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Bryn666
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 18:05
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 20:50 It's very hard to find photos of London traffic signs in the 1990s but given it seems many of the mid 1960s GLC boxy backlit signs were still hanging on this late into proceedings it's no wonder it was such a mammoth task.
There were still a surprising number of pre-Worboys signs, on yellow backing boards, on London main roads into the 1990s. The South Circular seemed particularly prone to still have them.
Yes, there were plenty of surprising pre-Worboys signs all over London well until the last decade off the TfL network too.

It just shows how no one bothers to do any real asset management here, too many signs are the ultimate put up and forget installations usually driven by local politicians rather than any pressing need for them.
Bryn
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WHBM
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by WHBM »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 20:22
Yes, there were plenty of surprising pre-Worboys signs all over London well until the last decade off the TfL network too.
Guess what (and still illuminated) ... July 2021 image :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5654445 ... 384!8i8192
Glenn A
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by Glenn A »

WHBM wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 21:15
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 20:22
Yes, there were plenty of surprising pre-Worboys signs all over London well until the last decade off the TfL network too.
Guess what (and still illuminated) ... July 2021 image :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5654445 ... 384!8i8192
On an important route, too, this is a real find and I do remember well into the eighties, these old signs were common in inner London on major routes.
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Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?

Post by OliverH »

if you want how about the lights of signs too. i have seen a few around including bath that all have the same sign light. they were probably replaced when the new bollards were introduced.
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