Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
Moderator: Site Management Team
Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
My question is: was there a time post worboys (perhaps 1980's / early 90's) when mass wholesale sign replacements occured?
Ok, i don't profess to be a signage expert however the reason i ask this is that when i'm out and about i often wonder what the age is of certain signs and i see a lot of pre 1994 regs signs that could well be knocking on 30+ years old today. But in a lot of cases these would have replaced earlier worboys signs which may not have been very old at the time. It seems early worboys signs (such as those dark green/ non retro-reflective backed) and older blue bordered signs seemed to get phased out very quickly in the 1980's and 1990's with a smattering hanging on in various places today. So why was this? Did the older 'early worboys' signs deteriorate more quickly?
Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
Ok, i don't profess to be a signage expert however the reason i ask this is that when i'm out and about i often wonder what the age is of certain signs and i see a lot of pre 1994 regs signs that could well be knocking on 30+ years old today. But in a lot of cases these would have replaced earlier worboys signs which may not have been very old at the time. It seems early worboys signs (such as those dark green/ non retro-reflective backed) and older blue bordered signs seemed to get phased out very quickly in the 1980's and 1990's with a smattering hanging on in various places today. So why was this? Did the older 'early worboys' signs deteriorate more quickly?
Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
In a very quick nutshell:Rambo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:28 My question is: was there a time post worboys (perhaps 1980's / early 90's) when mass wholesale sign replacements occured?
Ok, i don't profess to be a signage expert however the reason i ask this is that when i'm out and about i often wonder what the age is of certain signs and i see a lot of pre 1994 regs signs that could well be knocking on 30+ years old today. But in a lot of cases these would have replaced earlier worboys signs which may not have been very old at the time. It seems early worboys signs (such as those dark green/ non retro-reflective backed) and older blue bordered signs seemed to get phased out very quickly in the 1980's and 1990's with a smattering hanging on in various places today. So why was this? Did the older 'early worboys' signs deteriorate more quickly?
Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
Sign materials last longer today and are better performing, so wholesale replacements aren't as necessary. They still should be replaced every 15-20 years though but rarely are.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Vierwielen
- Member
- Posts: 5707
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
- Location: Hampshire
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
I've certainly read descriptions of things like this happening during the late 1980s. The reasoning being that the Thatcher government made a lot of money available for spending on roads, but their road building plans took time to gather speed, so there was a period where (on trunk roads especially) money was being spent on renewing signs, lighting etc. on assets that weren't necessarily life expired yet, simply because there was a lot of cash sloshing around for that sort of thing. How true it was, or how widespread it might have been, I don't know.Rambo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 18:28Take for example here on the A55 Chester bypass.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1565532 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1561338 ... 384!8i8192
Apprently this section opened in the mid 1970's so these signs must be newer versions than the originals. But if these signs are pre 1994, which i'm guessing they are (blue border) then they replaced original signs that were only 10-15 years old? I see quite a lot of examples like this. So what was the appetite for this?
Perhaps there is less ££ for signage replacement these days and we get more value for money out of those types installed in the 1980s and 1990's. After all, there are a lot that are in very good condition and should last for some years to come so would probably only be replaced if damaged or are in poor state. Or not in many cases (see manky signs thread!).
Chris
Roads.org.uk
Roads.org.uk
-
- New Member
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 09:37
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
I suppose the biggest wholesale signing schemes will still have been the London Primary Route schemes 1998 - 2001. I was the lead designer on 2 of the schemes. the Eastern scheme D & B with Parkman & Fitzpatricks, that was 2000+ ADS & DS, contract value was around £12million. Northwest Scheme with Parkman/Associated Ashphalt 1800+ ADS & DS contract value around £8 million. The third contract SE quadrant was D & B and ran into major financial issues.
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
It's very hard to find photos of London traffic signs in the 1990s but given it seems many of the mid 1960s GLC boxy backlit signs were still hanging on this late into proceedings it's no wonder it was such a mammoth task.storeydesign wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:04 I suppose the biggest wholesale signing schemes will still have been the London Primary Route schemes 1998 - 2001. I was the lead designer on 2 of the schemes. the Eastern scheme D & B with Parkman & Fitzpatricks, that was 2000+ ADS & DS, contract value was around £12million. Northwest Scheme with Parkman/Associated Ashphalt 1800+ ADS & DS contract value around £8 million. The third contract SE quadrant was D & B and ran into major financial issues.
I actually find navigating London's "trunk" (for want of a better phrase to describe TfL's network) a lot easier than the boroughs, who seem to have never realised what a sign design program is, let alone what the rules are given everything looks like it was made in MS Paint on a Friday afternoon.
Blackburn of course is a shambles of direction signs because no one wanted to review them, and the last person that did was incompetent. So that was a win all round...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Nathan_A_RF
- Member
- Posts: 723
- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
- Location: East Sussex/Southampton
- Contact:
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
East Sussex County Council seemed to do some mass replacements of all signs along my local road a few months ago, along with many other roads in the county. All pristine and shiny new signs.
- Conekicker
- Member
- Posts: 3763
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
- Location: South Yorks
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
NHS years.
"Nurse!"
"I'll be there in a minute Mr. Smith."
2 hours later...
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 21:16
- Location: Walsall Wood, WALSALL, West Midlands
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
Hi!
Birmingham also carried out a major full major primary route direction sign replacement program on the A4540 and all the major radials, from about 2003 (The A4540 and the A456 from M5 J3 to Five Ways were the first two routes to be done) to about 2010, only trouble was, the new signs seemed to have an irresistible attraction to all the chavs and boy–racers, judging by the number that got bashed, knocked down or had whole chunks thieved from them shortly after they went up!!!!
The side–road signs meeting up with the newly–resigned routes weren't replaced until a much later stage in the process tho!
Chris Williams
Birmingham also carried out a major full major primary route direction sign replacement program on the A4540 and all the major radials, from about 2003 (The A4540 and the A456 from M5 J3 to Five Ways were the first two routes to be done) to about 2010, only trouble was, the new signs seemed to have an irresistible attraction to all the chavs and boy–racers, judging by the number that got bashed, knocked down or had whole chunks thieved from them shortly after they went up!!!!
The side–road signs meeting up with the newly–resigned routes weren't replaced until a much later stage in the process tho!
Chris Williams
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
There were still a surprising number of pre-Worboys signs, on yellow backing boards, on London main roads into the 1990s. The South Circular seemed particularly prone to still have them.
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
Yes, there were plenty of surprising pre-Worboys signs all over London well until the last decade off the TfL network too.
It just shows how no one bothers to do any real asset management here, too many signs are the ultimate put up and forget installations usually driven by local politicians rather than any pressing need for them.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
Guess what (and still illuminated) ... July 2021 image :
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5654445 ... 384!8i8192
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
On an important route, too, this is a real find and I do remember well into the eighties, these old signs were common in inner London on major routes.WHBM wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 21:15Guess what (and still illuminated) ... July 2021 image :
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5654445 ... 384!8i8192
Re: Was there a golden age of wholesale sign replacement?
if you want how about the lights of signs too. i have seen a few around including bath that all have the same sign light. they were probably replaced when the new bollards were introduced.