1964 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

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cb a1
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by cb a1 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 14:33

orudge wrote:
cb a1 wrote:Obviously there were (and still are some) estuarial crossings by ferry, but I didn't realise there was still a mainland to mainland ferry like this running and can't see any other similar services on this map.
Possibly they ran services from Leith to Aberdeen and then onto Kirkwall or Lerwick.
That makes much more sense! If I were in Edinburgh and wanted to get to Lerwick (or vice versa), I can see the temptation to simply drive down to Leith and go from there rather than having to drive all the way up to Aberdeen first before getting on the ferry.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by c2R » Wed Mar 30, 2016 15:20

The mapping or Ireland (or lack thereof) is very interesting... ferry terminals, aerodromes, major towns, and coastal features... but no main road links, even in the north.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Ritchie333 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 15:21

vlad wrote:I hadn't realised this section of motorway was so old - and apparently neither did CBRD....
I didn't realise you were talking about the M5 Cribbs Causeway, rather I thought you were wondering why the M4 (as was) ended on the A48 well short of Newport at Crick. That's because not too long after the map was published, they decided to throw in a Newport bypass as part of the whole scheme, so the terminal roundabout was never built. I don't think there's any on the ground evidence of it at all.

What's not obvious from the map, because of its ten mile scale, is whereabouts the M4 was supposed to join the A48. If you look at where the M48 runs today, its to the east of Crick village, whereas it would make far more sense for it to land on the dual carriageway section to the west.

Actually, another thing I've just noticed having looked up some archive documentation - the MOT took responsibility to the M4 up to the sliproads at what's now M48 J2, which remains the case today if you look up the Highways England trunk road map. I wonder if this is why the "Croeso y Cymru" signs never started at the middle of the Wye Bridge (which is technically the border) but halfway underneath the junction.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Steven » Wed Mar 30, 2016 15:28

c2R wrote:The mapping or Ireland (or lack thereof) is very interesting... ferry terminals, aerodromes, major towns, and coastal features... but no main road links, even in the north.
That's because it's an Ordnance Survey map, not an OSNI or OSI one.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by c2R » Wed Mar 30, 2016 15:49

Steven wrote:
c2R wrote:The mapping or Ireland (or lack thereof) is very interesting... ferry terminals, aerodromes, major towns, and coastal features... but no main road links, even in the north.
That's because it's an Ordnance Survey map, not an OSNI or OSI one.
I realise that :) However, the design decision to include as much as it does interests me; it goes inland quite a way (compared with France where only a corner tip is shown).
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by nowster » Wed Mar 30, 2016 16:31

Ritchie333 wrote:... the "Croeso y Cymru" signs...
"Croeso i Cymru" (ie. "Welcome to Wales", not "Welcome of the Wales".) :P

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Steven » Wed Mar 30, 2016 16:34

c2R wrote:
Steven wrote:
c2R wrote:The mapping or Ireland (or lack thereof) is very interesting... ferry terminals, aerodromes, major towns, and coastal features... but no main road links, even in the north.
That's because it's an Ordnance Survey map, not an OSNI or OSI one.
I realise that :) However, the design decision to include as much as it does interests me; it goes inland quite a way (compared with France where only a corner tip is shown).
It's probably to get the Outer Hebrides in.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Jam35 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 18:56

nowster wrote:
Ritchie333 wrote:... the "Croeso y Cymru" signs...
"Croeso i Cymru" (ie. "Welcome to Wales", not "Welcome of the Wales".) :P

Romanes eunt domus!
Nearly. "Croeso i Gymru". The preposition "i" (to/for) causes the soft mutation.

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by nowster » Wed Mar 30, 2016 19:05

Da iawn! :wink:

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by vlad » Wed Mar 30, 2016 19:19

Ritchie333 wrote: What's not obvious from the map, because of its ten mile scale, is whereabouts the M4 was supposed to join the A48. If you look at where the M48 runs today, its to the east of Crick village, whereas it would make far more sense for it to land on the dual carriageway section to the west.
The 1/4" map of a few years earlier (here) seems to give the motorway its current route to the east of Crick - do the dashed lines mean projected or under construction? There's no sign of any dual carriageway on the A48; as the 10m map shows the motorway ending on it, it could have been planned as part of the same scheme then curtailed when the motorway was extended instead.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Chris Bertram » Wed Mar 30, 2016 20:52

Did anyone else notice that Monmouthshire is part of England on that map? The boundary along the River Rhymney has the +-+-+- marking, while the Wye has ------.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Ritchie333 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 21:02

vlad wrote:There's no sign of any dual carriageway on the A48; as the 10m map shows the motorway ending on it, it could have been planned as part of the same scheme then curtailed when the motorway was extended instead.
IIRC the Crick - Newport section was in the programme before bulldozer met sod for the previous section. Some of the projected / under construction lines on earlier maps can be politely described as "guesswork", though I think by the 1950s that was in the past. I suspect the answer probably lies in an archive file; probably the Welsh National Archives in Cardiff, or possibly the National Archives - there are a bunch of Trunk Road Master Plan files (MT 120) that may have information.

As for Monmouthshire being in England, yes that was the biggest dilemma in the UK after what to call the second largest city in Northern Ireland, that one by Loch Foyle. Route planning maps tended to put it there.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by cb a1 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 14:49

owen b wrote:Interesting to see how much of the A1 and A74 had been dualled. Surprised to see Ferrybridge to Wetherby still not fully dualled. The cartographers made a hash of the Newark bypass.
Following on from the A74, look at the A80 too! Why did that get dualled before anything between Glasgow and Edinburgh? I know the M8 plans would have been very far advanced for the commencement of building in late 1965, but the fact that the A80 was already dualled surprised me.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Ritchie333 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 15:02

I think it's probably because in the 1960s, the 1930s Glasgow - Edinburgh Road was in better shape than the coaching road up to Stirling, so an improvement was less important. Cumbernauld had been planned to take a lot of overspill from Glasgow since the mid-1950s, so this probably made it important to upgrade the road between the two.
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 18:53

Ritchie333 wrote:I think it's probably because in the 1960s, the 1930s Glasgow - Edinburgh Road was in better shape than the coaching road up to Stirling, so an improvement was less important. Cumbernauld had been planned to take a lot of overspill from Glasgow since the mid-1950s, so this probably made it important to upgrade the road between the two.
I agree, I expect in the 1960s the mentality was that the A8 had got its upgrade 25-30 years earlier and was now a purpose built road, whereas the A80 wasn't. By that time the standard to which major roads was improved was higher.

It's similar to the decisions taken in Lancashire in the same period, where no motorway was planned between Manchester and Liverpool on the basis that they already had an improved trunk road - the East Lancs - connecting them, only 30 years old. It was Lancashire CC that pushed for a motorway and eventually got one, but the Ministry did initially consider that road to have already had its turn.

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Steven » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:06

Having just scanned both editions of the 1965 Route Planning (nee Ten Mile) maps, I've come across something a little bit peculiar.

Both editions are labelled as "correct to November 1964", but the later B/* revision has an annotation about "Reprinted with the addition of major roads 1965". Which is all well and good, and expected.

The most obvious difference between the two maps is the M1 between Lutterworth and Coalville being shown as under construction on the earlier map, and open on the later. Great. Apart from CBRD reckons that the stretch between Crick and Kegworth opened in one big batch in November 1965 - not in three separate sections as the map implies.

In addition, the M5 between J3 and J4 is shown as under construction on both maps (again, opened in November 1965 according to CBRD), but the M4 between J1 and J7 (opened March 1965) and the M6 between Lancaster and Preston (Jan 1965) is also open on both maps, despite the maps being "correct to November 1964" - a few months before either opened!

All just a tad odd...
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 14:01

Steven wrote:All just a tad odd...
Motorway opening dates give me the feeling of a heavy weight descending onto my shoulders these days.

The opening dates listed on CBRD are taken from a list compiled for the UK Motorway Archive project by Peter Hewitt and Tony Priest, but inevitably they were making the most accurate list they could from the information they had - and it's quite likely there were inaccuracies where some information wasn't available to them or a source was misleading. I also don't know what their sources were; I just have the list they compiled and trust that they did a good job because they were making it for the very reputable UK Motorway Archive project!

I'm very open to making corrections to the data on CBRD, with two small provisos... one is that I'm not altogether sure of the best way to verify any changes. This map, for example, might point out where the dates on CBRD are inaccurate, but won't necessarily tell us the correct month and year that a section opened.

The other is that changing the timeline on a motorway's page is easy to update, but the chronology maps are a complete pain to change even slightly, and may not be updated for a long time!

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Steven » Sat Apr 09, 2016 16:09

Chris5156 wrote:
Steven wrote:All just a tad odd...
I'm very open to making corrections to the data on CBRD, with two small provisos... one is that I'm not altogether sure of the best way to verify any changes. This map, for example, might point out where the dates on CBRD are inaccurate, but won't necessarily tell us the correct month and year that a section opened.

The other is that changing the timeline on a motorway's page is easy to update, but the chronology maps are a complete pain to change even slightly, and may not be updated for a long time!
Actually, I was kinda suggesting the other way around, that the OS map was clearly a bit dodgy!
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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 16:47

Steven wrote:Actually, I was kinda suggesting the other way around, that the OS map was clearly a bit dodgy!
I am flattered by your assumptions of non-dodginess on my part!

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Re: 1964/5 Ordnance Survey Ten Mile / Inch maps

Post by aj444 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 18:46

This Map (W&A.K. Johnston) shows a partially open M1 to Coalville.
They never put a printing date on these though so it's quite difficult to work out exactly when it was printed.

Image
Last edited by aj444 on Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:12, edited 1 time in total.

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