Historic Counties SABRE Maps layer

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Steven
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Historic Counties SABRE Maps layer

Post by Steven »

roadtester wrote:Excuse my ignorance but is there an agreed consistent definition of what constitute “historic counties” or does it depend on what year you want to turn the clock back to?
Yes there is. Basically, the last legislation that affected the counties themselves was the Detached Parts Act of 1844 which cleaned up most of the little exclaves. Any alterations to "counties" after that point wasn't to the counties themselves, but to the newfangled local authorities (so County Councils, County Borough Councils etc) created in the 1888 Local Government Act. The 1974 changes in England and Wales, for example, abolished all the local authorities that existed at that point (except within Greater London), and created a whole load of new ones - they didn't touch the historic counties themselves. Hence it's not about "turning the clock back", as they still exist intact.

The Historic Counties layers on SABRE Maps show the counties, bar the odd small exception such as Dudley being an exclave of Worcestershire within Staffordshire which isn't shown for clarity.
Owain wrote:My understanding is that ceremonial counties are signed in some places, at the discretion of whatever authority is willing to install a sign.
So-called "Ceremonial counties" don't actually exist with that name or in the form that the likes of Wikipedia like to claim - they're actually "Counties for the Purposes of Lieutenancy" and are collections of Administrative Counties for that purpose alone. They're also actually not lawful to be signed in TSRGD - only council areas and Historic Counties are allowed.

There's a number of Historic County boundary signs in existence - for example there are a few on the Yorkshire/Durham border across the Tees.
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jgharston
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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Steven wrote:The Historic Counties layers on SABRE Maps show the counties, bar the odd small exception such as Dudley being an exclave of Worcestershire within Staffordshire which isn't shown for clarity.
And ABC's own maps show a third of Sheffield in Yorkshire which should be shown as being in Derbyshire.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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Steven wrote:
roadtester wrote:Excuse my ignorance but is there an agreed consistent definition of what constitute “historic counties” or does it depend on what year you want to turn the clock back to?
Yes there is. Basically, the last legislation that affected the counties themselves was the Detached Parts Act of 1844 which cleaned up most of the little exclaves. Any alterations to "counties" after that point wasn't to the counties themselves, but to the newfangled local authorities (so County Councils, County Borough Councils etc) created in the 1888 Local Government Act. The 1974 changes in England and Wales, for example, abolished all the local authorities that existed at that point (except within Greater London), and created a whole load of new ones - they didn't touch the historic counties themselves. Hence it's not about "turning the clock back", as they still exist intact.

The Historic Counties layers on SABRE Maps show the counties, bar the odd small exception such as Dudley being an exclave of Worcestershire within Staffordshire which isn't shown for clarity.
Thanks. On that basis, looks like I’d be in Cambs rather than the much more interesting Isle of Ely (1889).
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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crb11 wrote:Having a look at that Wikipedia page, a number of the early 20th changes are attributed to Ministry of Health declarations. Does anyone know why they got responsibility for county borde 1844rs?
Under the Local Government Act 1894, county councils were empowered to agree territorial transfers between themselves -- subject to the passage of a private Act endorsed by a government minister. I'd say that the reason why it seems always to have been the Ministry of Health that dealt with this matter was the close administrative connection between health provision and local government: it had, after all, been the same act which transformed the former sanitary districts into urban and rural (all-purpose) districts.

The most wide-ranging of these Acts was probably the Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and Worcestershire) Act 1931, which had the effect of transferring some 30 parishes or parts of parishes between the three counties affecred, with effect from 1 April 1932. Oddly, the SABRE maps "traditional counties" layer which Steven cited earlier (as showing the 1844 borders) in fact incorporates these 1931-2 changes as far as the quite extensive Worcestershire exclaves are concerned.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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Viator wrote:Oddly, the SABRE maps "traditional counties" layer which Steven cited earlier (as showing the 1844 borders) in fact incorporates these 1931-2 changes as far as the quite extensive Worcestershire exclaves are concerned.
Indeed. When the counties layer was announced I immediately went to look at the area around Brum to look for all the exclaves, and was disappointed to not find them.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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jgharston wrote:
Viator wrote:Oddly, the SABRE maps "traditional counties" layer which Steven cited earlier (as showing the 1844 borders) in fact incorporates these 1931-2 changes as far as the quite extensive Worcestershire exclaves are concerned.
Indeed. When the counties layer was announced I immediately went to look at the area around Brum to look for all the exclaves, and was disappointed to not find them.
To be fair though, they actually don't exist any more as they were cleaned up by the 1844 Act!

Try this link if you want to see the pre-Detached Act boundaries.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

Post by Viator »

Thanks for the link, Steven.

As you know, I'm sure, the 1844 Act didn't transfer all the detached parts to their surrounding counties, though. For the record, here are the transfers made under the Gloucestershire/Warwickshire/Worcestershire Act of 1931 which are reflected in the Sabre historic counties layer -- perhaps for the very reason that they were exclaves -- while 26 others are not:

From Worcestershire to Gloucestershire
* Blockley
* Cutsdean
* Daylesford
* Evenlode

From Worcestershire to Warwickshire
* Alderminster
* Shipston-on-Stour
* Tidmington
* Tredington

I'd be interested to know if you regard Shipston-on-Stour as still being in Worcestershire, Steven! I grew up in the area of these boundary-change-affected places (and my brother was born in Shipston) and for the first 18 years of my life I lived within Warwickshire without any idea of being no more than a few steps to less than a mile away from the traditional boundaries of both Gloucestershire and Worcestershire, and no-one ever mentioned the transfers either, even though they had happened well within living memory. Perhaps it was because Stratford-on-Avon had long been the recognized market centre for all the Gloucestershire and Worcestershire villages transferred to Warwickshire in 1932.

P.S. A further wrinkle to the saga of the county boundaries is that detached portions had already been considered to be part of their surrounding counties for the purpose of parliamentary representation since as far back as 1832.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

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Steven wrote:Try this link if you want to see the pre-Detached Act boundaries.
Wow! That's three hours of my life I'll never see again. Bookmarked for further perusal.

I knew Derbyshire had a large detatched part, but the mess west of Ashley-de-la-Zouch is amazing.

And a good pub quiz question: What traditional county is Twyford in. Wiltshire. WILTSHIRE???

I started looking for multiple-order exclaves, most of the 2nd-order exclaves surprisingly seem to be in Yorkshire. I'm on a quest to find some 3rd-order excalves, they must exist somewhere!
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

Post by Steven »

Viator wrote:As you know, I'm sure, the 1844 Act didn't transfer all the detached parts to their surrounding counties, though.
Not all, just the vast majority! Dudley is an excellent example of a populated area that was not affected by the Detached Parts Act, although nearby areas of the Black Country were.
For the record, here are the transfers made under the Gloucestershire/Warwickshire/Worcestershire Act of 1931 which are reflected in the Sabre historic counties layer -- perhaps for the very reason that they were exclaves
Yep. As I mentioned upthread, exclaves (bar Flintshire and theoretically Furness) are missed out for clarity.
I'd be interested to know if you regard Shipston-on-Stour as still being in Worcestershire, Steven!
Well, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the location of every boundary!

If it wasn't cleaned up by the time of the 1888 LGA, then all succeeding "boundary changes" from that point refer to the administrative county (or County Council) layer, or with the associated County Boroughs. For example, Dudley is still within Worcestershire, as although Dudley County Borough was changed to be associated to Staffordshire County Council for various purposes in 1966, it affected the administrative layer only.
P.S. A further wrinkle to the saga of the county boundaries is that detached portions had already been considered to be part of their surrounding counties for the purpose of parliamentary representation since as far back as 1832.
And, of course, census data was reported for the historic counties well into the twentieth century.
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

Post by Viator »

Steven wrote:
Viator wrote:I'd be interested to know if you regard Shipston-on-Stour as still being in Worcestershire, Steven!
Well, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the location of every boundary!
And I woudn't expect you to. (Sorry if my question came across as snidey!)

No, I was just wondering -- call it idle curiosity on my part! -- if you personally take the view (in the same way that you say "Dudley is still within Worcestershire", and given that the transfer in question happened, of course, post 1844) that Shipston-on-Stour is still within Worcestershire.

Or, to put it another way, would you say that SABRE Maps' historic counties layer shows (for England and Wales) the boundaries as they were on 20 October 1844 with the exception that exclaves (other than Furness and Maelor Saesneg) remaining after that date are not indicated?
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Re: Traditional Counties Campaign

Post by Steven »

Viator wrote:
Steven wrote:
Viator wrote:I'd be interested to know if you regard Shipston-on-Stour as still being in Worcestershire, Steven!
Well, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the location of every boundary!
And I woudn't expect you to. (Sorry if my question came across as snidey!)
It didn't - I was smiling as I typed it - so I obviously came across badly!
No, I was just wondering -- call it idle curiosity on my part! -- if you personally take the view (in the same way that you say "Dudley is still within Worcestershire", and given that the transfer in question happened, of course, post 1844) that Shipston-on-Stour is still within Worcestershire.

Or, to put it another way, would you say that SABRE Maps' historic counties layer shows (for England and Wales) the boundaries as they were on 20 October 1844 with the exception that exclaves (other than Furness and Maelor Saesneg) remaining after that date are not indicated?
Well, not quite! The SABRE Maps historic counties layer shows the boundaries as they stand today, but with exclaves other than the two mentioned are not indicated - a fact that does irritate me constantly given Dudley, but it's the data provided by the Historic Counties Boundaries Project who provide two sets of boundaries - these mentioned, and the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries with everything shown. In an ideal world, of course, the current boundaries with extant exclaves would be the best option, but it's not currently on offer.

And no, they haven't changed since 31 March 1888 as far as I know - as I mentioned upthread, any "county boundary changes" since that date have been to council areas only, and not to the counties themselves.
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