Weird boundaries

[Rob590]

Always surprises me just how far to the west Yorkshire ends up / ended up going. Think of it as an east coast thing but it almost makes it to the West coast and touches the M6 near Kendal.

Going back as far as the Domesday Book, and Yorkshire did extend to the Irish Sea: what is now south Cumbria and Lancashire north of the Ribble were recorded as part of Yorkshire, including Lancaster itself!

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Always surprises me just how far to the west Yorkshire ends up / ended up going. Think of it as an east coast thing but it almost makes it to the West coast and touches the M6 near Kendal.

What intrigues me is just how close the West Riding of Yorkshire was to Manchester city centre. There was less than ten miles between the eastern boundary of the city of Manchester and the western boundary of the West Riding (e.g. A62 at Austerlands, A669 at Springhead, A670 at Mossley).

[Dadge]

The historic Yorkshire/Lancashire border didn't make a lot of geographical sense - for instance, Saddleworth and Barnoldswick (west of the Pennines) were part of Yorkshire, while Todmorden (east of the Pennines) was part of Lancashire.

Latterly, Todmorden had been part of the West Riding in its entirety, the boundary being moved in 1888. Prior to that it had divided the town along the River Calder and the Walsden Water. So it's incorrect to say "Todmorden was in Lancashire". Only part of it was.

It's not incorrect - Todmorden township was in Lancashire; in the 19th century it was normal to say it was a Lancashire town, even though the boundary split it. http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/3 A surprisingly large number of towns and villages were split between counties, but usually only one county name was given when stating where the town/village was.

I'm another map/boundary nut. The NLS's online publication of the Victorian 6 and 25 inch maps has provided me with many evenings of pleasurable browsing. (The maps are mostly also on the OS's old maps website, but it's no fun browsing them on there.) The earliest maps, from the 1840s to the 1870s, are especially fascinating. The 1844 act tidied up the county boundaries a lot, but there were still many weird boundaries around until the 1880s. Unfortunately the midland counties weren't covered by the pre-1880s mapping.

One tradition that didn't last very long was publishing separate county series. So Todmorden needed two maps: http://maps.nls.uk/view/102343982 and http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344992

[FleetlinePhil]

The historic Yorkshire/Lancashire border didn't make a lot of geographical sense - for instance, Saddleworth and Barnoldswick (west of the Pennines) were part of Yorkshire, while Todmorden (east of the Pennines) was part of Lancashire.

Latterly, Todmorden had been part of the West Riding in its entirety, the boundary being moved in 1888. Prior to that it had divided the town along the River Calder and the Walsden Water. So it's incorrect to say "Todmorden was in Lancashire". Only part of it was.

It's not incorrect - Todmorden township was in Lancashire; in the 19th century it was normal to say it was a Lancashire town, even though the boundary split it. http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/3 A surprisingly large number of towns and villages were split between counties, but usually only one county name was given when stating where the town/village was.

I'm another map/boundary nut. The NLS's online publication of the Victorian 6 and 25 inch maps has provided me with many evenings of pleasurable browsing. (The maps are mostly also on the OS's old maps website, but it's no fun browsing them on there.) The earliest maps, from the 1840s to the 1870s, are especially fascinating. The 1844 act tidied up the county boundaries a lot, but there were still many weird boundaries around until the 1880s. Unfortunately the midland counties weren't covered by the pre-1880s mapping.

One tradition that didn't last very long was publishing separate county series. So Todmorden needed two maps: http://maps.nls.uk/view/102343982 and http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344992

All very interesting, particularly the maps (thanks). As I have always been interested in, and mostly worked in, public transport, I have always regarded the place as being in West Yorkshire as it had green Metro buses. It does have quite strong links with Burnley (football particularly) and has also has become a commuter town for Manchester - I guess I was ahead of the curve on that one back in 1984! Of course, there are also significant numbers that commute into Halifax, Bradford and Leeds too.

Looking at the maps, I noticed that the boundary that now sits at Portsmouth (as mentioned in an earlier post) is shown a few hudred yards further SE at Red Water Foot in the middle of Cornholme. It would make administrative sense to have the entire built-up area in the West Riding rather than following a topological feature - I can just imagine the arguments on a bus if that part had stayed in Lancashire and not been subject to Metro's cheap fares!

The other thing I've discovered is that what appears to be my house is shown. If that is the case, it makes the house at least 25 years older than we thought!

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Although Todmorden is in West Yorkshire, Todmorden Cricket Club is a long standing member of the Lancashire League.

[FleetlinePhil]

Although Todmorden is in West Yorkshire, Todmorden Cricket Club is a long standing member of the Lancashire League.

Indeed it is, I should have mentioned that. Whilst cricket isn't my game for a moment, I believe a thriving club is a good thing for the town to have and have supported them over the years through their autumn beer festival and indeed played for them in the local quiz league for a few years. There are two other cricket clubs in the town boundary, Bridgeholme (on the A646 towards Hebden Bridge) who play in the SW Halifax league and Walsden who are in Lancashire alongside Todmorden.

It would perhaps be instructive to know which county team the more committed cricet fans support, but I have never asked!

[Dadge]

Looking at the maps again, I see that the town was actually divided in three, because the Yorkshire side was divided between the townships of Stansfield and Langfield. "White Plats" and "Toad Carr" were in Stansfield - I don't know if those names are still used. I can also see two boundary stones marked on the Burnley Road in that area. This must be one of them https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/294071050641898537/

[FleetlinePhil]

Looking at the maps again, I see that the town was actually divided in three, because the Yorkshire side was divided between the townships of Stansfield and Langfield. "White Plats" and "Toad Carr" were in Stansfield - I don't know if those names are still used. I can also see two boundary stones marked on the Burnley Road in that area. This must be one of them https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/294071050641898537/

To a limited extent: Stansfield is sometimes used to describe the mixed residential and industrial area bounded by the Burnley Road, the lane shown on the map as Blind Lane and the railway. When we moved here in 1984, there was a "Stansfied General Improvement Area" proposed, which resulted in the area being stone-cleaned and the Yorkshire stone pavements being replaced by tarmac. It is probably not used much by locals in everyday speech. I would never use the term to describe my location; I would give my street name, and if they didn't know where it was, one of the better-known parallel streets usually works! One of these, Stansfield Road, is shown but not named on the map - it is the one crossing the river then running between two of the mill buildings. The road shown running perpendicular to it at the NE end of the mill complex is now Whiteplatts Street, the only reference I am aware of to that name.

Stansfield Hall is often used to denote the residential area on the other side of the railway, the hall itself being split into smaller residences, although Hallroyd can be substituted and understood locally.

[timbucks]

Not that they show on these maps but the constituency boundaries (and them being subject to the whim of the Electoral Commission) sometimes throw up weird occurrences. If the changes planned go through, when driving from my home in Buckingham (Buckingham constituency) to Baynards Green (Cherwell constituency) near the M40 I would end up passing through the what is currently called the Henley constituency (though it possibly will be renamed to East Oxfordshire)

[jgharston]

Going back as far as the Domesday Book, and Yorkshire did extend to the Irish Sea: what is now south Cumbria and Lancashire north of the Ribble were recorded as part of Yorkshire, including Lancaster itself!

No, Lancashire and Cumbria were not recorded as part of Yorkshire, they were recorded on the returns for Yorkshire, they were very much seperate entities.