Weird boundaries

Talk about items you find on SABRE Maps - interesting features, historic road layouts etc. Also contains announcements of new maps available on SABRE Maps.

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wrinkly
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Weird boundaries

Post by wrinkly » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:00

A weird bit of boundary near Swindon:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =8&layer=0

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:14

It'll likely be of ancient origin, and nobody has ever seen the need to tidy it up.

Here's another one. In this case, it's impossible to reach Pentreheyling, in Shropshire, by road without passing through a part of Wales.

And just here, the hamlet of Illey, in the borough of Dudley, is unreachable without passing though Worcestershire.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Big L » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:32

Chris Bertram wrote:It'll likely be of ancient origin, and nobody has ever seen the need to tidy it up.

Here's another one. In this case, it's impossible to reach Pentreheyling, in Shropshire, by road without passing through a part of Wales.

And just here, the hamlet of Illey, in the borough of Dudley, is unreachable without passing though Worcestershire.
Links are wrong. This is Illey.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Piatkow » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:39

You can identify some in the Doomsday Book.

The "village" where I live (4 hamlets joined up by development in the 50s) is divided between a rural parish council and the neighbouring town council based on who had the medieval rights to graze livestock and gather timber. I don't even have the right to be buried in my parish church because the burial ground is owned by the civil rather than CofE parish.

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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by wrinkly » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:41

This circular arc, radius one mile, is a good deal older than the Peak District National Park. It has been a borough and parish boundary. I once used it as the basis of a quiz-type question in British and Irish Roads:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0

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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by rhyds » Thu Feb 22, 2018 14:45

My favourite is this one over the Berwyn. The line down the middle of the B4391 is the Sir Ddinbych/Denbighshire county boundary, however its impossible to get to it by road without driving via Gwynedd or Powys first.

Much hilarity ensued a few years ago when Denbighshire decided to fully resurface their section of road, and placed their signs tidily on the county boundary, the problem is that you'd have had to drive for 10+ miles past the diversion point to reach the first closure sign!
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Big L » Thu Feb 22, 2018 15:18

What was the site someone on here linked to with the historic county boundaries on it? The really old weird one with Halesowen in Shropshire, that kind of thing.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Feb 22, 2018 15:22

Steven is your man for that.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Steven » Thu Feb 22, 2018 16:24

Big L wrote:What was the site someone on here linked to with the historic county boundaries on it? The really old weird one with Halesowen in Shropshire, that kind of thing.
Well, the historic county boundaries are on this funny little website that I'm sure no-one on here has heard of! It does, annoyingly, miss the various smaller exclaves that stil exist, such as Dudley.

If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Feb 22, 2018 16:46

Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Steven » Thu Feb 22, 2018 16:50

Chris Bertram wrote:
Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.
It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...

You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Feb 22, 2018 16:57

Steven wrote:You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
Well, to be fair, the county councils were based on the areas previously covered by the county courts, which were already aligned with the post-1844 counties.

That map does explain (as I realised already) why Warley Salop is so-called, being in Shrophire. Plain old Warley used (I think) to be Warley Wigorn, using the Latin name for Worcester, being in that county.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Truvelo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 17:00

My old house would have been in Shropshire. I think it may have been in Worcestershire after the Detached Parts Act before being transferred to Staffordshire.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Ruperts Trooper » Thu Feb 22, 2018 17:09

Steven wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:
Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.
It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...

You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Piatkow » Thu Feb 22, 2018 17:43

There is a WW2 escape story of a French officer who was trying to reach Switzerland. Due to the way that the border zig zagged he actually entered Switzerland but by travelling in a straight line reentered Germany where he was recaptured.

The exclave of Cambridgeshire at Ely Place in Holborn meant that some officers from Snow Hill carried two warrent cards, one for City Police and one for Cambridgeshire.

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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by exiled » Thu Feb 22, 2018 18:04

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Steven wrote:It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...

You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.
And yet it actually happened. One British serial killer of the 1940s was not caught because his place of operation was believed by one police force to be in another's jurisdiction and vice versa.

People literally were getting away with murder because the boundaries were slap dash and unclear.

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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Big L » Thu Feb 22, 2018 19:36

Steven wrote:Well, the historic county boundaries are on this funny little website that I'm sure no-one on here has heard of! It does, annoyingly, miss the various smaller exclaves that stil exist, such as Dudley.
I'm sure my 'dodgy website' filter blocks that one.
Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
That's the chap. Thanks.
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by vlad » Thu Feb 22, 2018 20:33

Chris Bertram wrote:It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands...
Worcestershire seems to have significantly more detached parts than any other English county - it makes you wonder whether these are the bits the local lords specifically wanted, or the bits neighbouring lords refused to have.
Ruperts Trooper wrote:I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.
If you're local and know where the boundaries are then that's all you need.

I appreciate that the boundaries are more obvious - but it's widely reported that criminal activity took place around Three Shire Heads (Cheshire/Derbyshire/Staffordshire) and when the police arrived all that happened was that it moved across the border to avoid capture. I'm sure I read somewhere that at times the police then decided to join in with, for example, the cockfighting precisely as they didn't have jurisdiction....
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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Ambosc79 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 20:45

The dogleg the Shropshire/Powys border takes around Corndon Hill causes some bizarre anomalies.

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.5 ... 7.39p,0.9z

This house on the A488 is in Wales. It's the second one just south of the 252m spot height here:
http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=333500 ... pp=map.srf
But you wouldn't know it, as there are no signs on the road. 200m either side is England. Even the private drive leads to England. No roads to the rest of Wales (although there appears to be a footpath). The only clue is that it's named "Welsh Lodge"....

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Re: Weird boundaries

Post by Robert Kilcoyne » Thu Feb 22, 2018 21:34

If you leave the Suffolk town of Newmarket in almost any direction by road you have to re-enter Cambridgeshire (the B1506 (former A45) towards Kentford straddles the Suffolk/Cambridgeshire border by The Limekilns before entering Suffolk proper):-

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0

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