Weird boundaries
Moderator: Site Management Team
- Chris Bertram
- Member
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: Weird boundaries
It'll likely be of ancient origin, and nobody has ever seen the need to tidy it up.
Here's another one. In this case, it's impossible to reach Pentreheyling, in Shropshire, by road without passing through a part of Wales.
And just here, the hamlet of Illey, in the borough of Dudley, is unreachable without passing though Worcestershire.
Here's another one. In this case, it's impossible to reach Pentreheyling, in Shropshire, by road without passing through a part of Wales.
And just here, the hamlet of Illey, in the borough of Dudley, is unreachable without passing though Worcestershire.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Re: Weird boundaries
Links are wrong. This is Illey.Chris Bertram wrote:It'll likely be of ancient origin, and nobody has ever seen the need to tidy it up.
Here's another one. In this case, it's impossible to reach Pentreheyling, in Shropshire, by road without passing through a part of Wales.
And just here, the hamlet of Illey, in the borough of Dudley, is unreachable without passing though Worcestershire.
Make poetry history.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
Re: Weird boundaries
You can identify some in the Doomsday Book.
The "village" where I live (4 hamlets joined up by development in the 50s) is divided between a rural parish council and the neighbouring town council based on who had the medieval rights to graze livestock and gather timber. I don't even have the right to be buried in my parish church because the burial ground is owned by the civil rather than CofE parish.
The "village" where I live (4 hamlets joined up by development in the 50s) is divided between a rural parish council and the neighbouring town council based on who had the medieval rights to graze livestock and gather timber. I don't even have the right to be buried in my parish church because the burial ground is owned by the civil rather than CofE parish.
Re: Weird boundaries
This circular arc, radius one mile, is a good deal older than the Peak District National Park. It has been a borough and parish boundary. I once used it as the basis of a quiz-type question in British and Irish Roads:
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0
Re: Weird boundaries
My favourite is this one over the Berwyn. The line down the middle of the B4391 is the Sir Ddinbych/Denbighshire county boundary, however its impossible to get to it by road without driving via Gwynedd or Powys first.
Much hilarity ensued a few years ago when Denbighshire decided to fully resurface their section of road, and placed their signs tidily on the county boundary, the problem is that you'd have had to drive for 10+ miles past the diversion point to reach the first closure sign!
Much hilarity ensued a few years ago when Denbighshire decided to fully resurface their section of road, and placed their signs tidily on the county boundary, the problem is that you'd have had to drive for 10+ miles past the diversion point to reach the first closure sign!
Built for comfort, not speed.
Re: Weird boundaries
What was the site someone on here linked to with the historic county boundaries on it? The really old weird one with Halesowen in Shropshire, that kind of thing.
Make poetry history.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
- Chris Bertram
- Member
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: Weird boundaries
Steven is your man for that.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
- Steven
- SABRE Maps Coordinator
- Posts: 19251
- Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
- Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
- Contact:
Re: Weird boundaries
Well, the historic county boundaries are on this funny little website that I'm sure no-one on here has heard of! It does, annoyingly, miss the various smaller exclaves that stil exist, such as Dudley.Big L wrote:What was the site someone on here linked to with the historic county boundaries on it? The really old weird one with Halesowen in Shropshire, that kind of thing.
If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
- Chris Bertram
- Member
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: Weird boundaries
It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
- Steven
- SABRE Maps Coordinator
- Posts: 19251
- Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
- Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
- Contact:
Re: Weird boundaries
It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...Chris Bertram wrote:It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
Steven
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Motorway Historian
Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
- Chris Bertram
- Member
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: Weird boundaries
Well, to be fair, the county councils were based on the areas previously covered by the county courts, which were already aligned with the post-1844 counties.Steven wrote:You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
That map does explain (as I realised already) why Warley Salop is so-called, being in Shrophire. Plain old Warley used (I think) to be Warley Wigorn, using the Latin name for Worcester, being in that county.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Re: Weird boundaries
My old house would have been in Shropshire. I think it may have been in Worcestershire after the Detached Parts Act before being transferred to Staffordshire.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
Big and complex.
- Ruperts Trooper
- Member
- Posts: 12049
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
- Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire
Re: Weird boundaries
I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.Steven wrote:It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...Chris Bertram wrote:It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands, where you've got bits of Worcestershire inside Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Warwickshire, bits of Herefordshire in Worcestershire and Shropshire, bits of Shropshire inside Worcestershire and Stafforshire, and bits of Warwickshire in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. And around the Halesowen/Warley/Oldbury area, there seem to be a set of enclaves and counter-enclaves that resemble the Baarle-Nassau/Baarle-Hertog situation in complexity.Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
Lifelong motorhead
Re: Weird boundaries
There is a WW2 escape story of a French officer who was trying to reach Switzerland. Due to the way that the border zig zagged he actually entered Switzerland but by travelling in a straight line reentered Germany where he was recaptured.
The exclave of Cambridgeshire at Ely Place in Holborn meant that some officers from Snow Hill carried two warrent cards, one for City Police and one for Cambridgeshire.
The exclave of Cambridgeshire at Ely Place in Holborn meant that some officers from Snow Hill carried two warrent cards, one for City Police and one for Cambridgeshire.
Re: Weird boundaries
And yet it actually happened. One British serial killer of the 1940s was not caught because his place of operation was believed by one police force to be in another's jurisdiction and vice versa.Ruperts Trooper wrote:I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.Steven wrote:It was absolutely bonkers! I have a mental picture of early Victorian-era criminals desperately riding on horseback across a county exclave boundary to escape the clutches of the County Sheriffs - rather like a 19th century Dukes of Hazzard...
You can see exactly why the Detached Parts Act was needed; and then later than that why the 1888 Local Government Act set up these new-fangled Administrative Counties as being based upon, but different to, the historic counties.
People literally were getting away with murder because the boundaries were slap dash and unclear.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Re: Weird boundaries
I'm sure my 'dodgy website' filter blocks that one.Steven wrote:Well, the historic county boundaries are on this funny little website that I'm sure no-one on here has heard of! It does, annoyingly, miss the various smaller exclaves that stil exist, such as Dudley.
That's the chap. Thanks.Steven wrote:If you're after the pre-Detached Parts Act boundaries (which is what I think you're looking for), then this is what you need.
Make poetry history.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
Re: Weird boundaries
Worcestershire seems to have significantly more detached parts than any other English county - it makes you wonder whether these are the bits the local lords specifically wanted, or the bits neighbouring lords refused to have.Chris Bertram wrote:It really was bonkers, wasn't it? Particularly around the west and south midlands...
If you're local and know where the boundaries are then that's all you need.Ruperts Trooper wrote:I can't imagine criminals of that era being able to read maps or navigate that to that level accuracy.
I appreciate that the boundaries are more obvious - but it's widely reported that criminal activity took place around Three Shire Heads (Cheshire/Derbyshire/Staffordshire) and when the police arrived all that happened was that it moved across the border to avoid capture. I'm sure I read somewhere that at times the police then decided to join in with, for example, the cockfighting precisely as they didn't have jurisdiction....
"If you expect nothing from somebody you are never disappointed." - Sylvia Plath
Re: Weird boundaries
The dogleg the Shropshire/Powys border takes around Corndon Hill causes some bizarre anomalies.
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.5 ... 7.39p,0.9z
This house on the A488 is in Wales. It's the second one just south of the 252m spot height here:
http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=333500 ... pp=map.srf
But you wouldn't know it, as there are no signs on the road. 200m either side is England. Even the private drive leads to England. No roads to the rest of Wales (although there appears to be a footpath). The only clue is that it's named "Welsh Lodge"....
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.5 ... 7.39p,0.9z
This house on the A488 is in Wales. It's the second one just south of the 252m spot height here:
http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=333500 ... pp=map.srf
But you wouldn't know it, as there are no signs on the road. 200m either side is England. Even the private drive leads to England. No roads to the rest of Wales (although there appears to be a footpath). The only clue is that it's named "Welsh Lodge"....
-
- Member
- Posts: 966
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:41
- Location: Birmingham
Re: Weird boundaries
If you leave the Suffolk town of Newmarket in almost any direction by road you have to re-enter Cambridgeshire (the B1506 (former A45) towards Kentford straddles the Suffolk/Cambridgeshire border by The Limekilns before entering Suffolk proper):-
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... =7&layer=0