A67(M)?

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Mattemotorway
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A67(M)?

Post by Mattemotorway »

I've noticed on the 1966 OS Routeplanner on SABRE maps that the A66(M) is shown as built (but unlabelled), whilst the A66 to the west of Darlington is still the A67. Could I have just dicovered a short-lived motorway or was it always the A66(M)?

(It's a shame I don't own the 1966 edition of 7th Series One Inch Sheet 85 Durham. Especially as I have the editions before and after it.)
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by JohnnyMo »

My Readers Digest Atlas dated 1965 has the A66 & A67 as now with the A66 going to Scotch Corner. The A1(M) is under construction
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by KeithW »

It was always the A66(M) , the old A66 ended at Scotch Corner and the A66(M) was built at the same time as the Darlington Bypass. Prior to that the old A1 ran through Barton to the roundabout where the A66(M) terminates. You can see this on the 1965 route planning map. The A67 then and now runs into central Darlington farther north but in the early 1960's ran along what is now the A66 to Thornaby which you can also see by comparing the 1965 1966 and 1968 maps.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by Ritchie333 »

Its maiden name, and one that should turn up in archive documents, is the “Darlington Spur Special Road”.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by wrinkly »

I remember seeing a photograph in a newspaper when the Darlington bypass and A66(M) opened in 1965. It showed a gantry sign at the divergence, with the same road numbers as today, A1(M) and A66(M).

The three first schemes to include gantry signs on motorways all opened in the early months of 1965. The other two were M6 Preston-Lancaster, with gantry signs at J32, and M4 Chiswick-Langley.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by ForestChav »

KeithW wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 15:01 It was always the A66(M) , the old A66 ended at Scotch Corner and the A66(M) was built at the same time as the Darlington Bypass. Prior to that the old A1 ran through Barton to the roundabout where the A66(M) terminates. You can see this on the 1965 route planning map. The A67 then and now runs into central Darlington farther north but in the early 1960's ran along what is now the A66 to Thornaby which you can also see by comparing the 1965 1966 and 1968 maps.
Of course, the A66 originally ran to Hull, along the current A59 and A1079.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by KeithW »

ForestChav wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 22:12 Of course, the A66 originally ran to Hull, along the current A59 and A1079.
It also ran along what is now the A1 south through Catterick, Leeming, Dishforth and Boroughbridge before picking up the A59 but that was always a bit of an oddity. The 1922 numbering also had the A1 zigzagging along country lanes between Darlington and Topcliffe along what is now the A167. This was rather odd and didn't last very long. By 1932 both the A1 and A66 had settled on the line they would occupy for the next 40 years.

If however you look back prior to 1922 the A66 was a major drovers road that was used to send cattle to market from Cumbria and SW Scotland to Darlington , Stockton and York at least as far back as Roman times. Scotch Corner was the location of a major battle between the Legions and the local tribe (Brigantes) to establish who controlled this vital route.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

KeithW wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 14:08 It also ran along what is now the A1 south through Catterick, Leeming, Dishforth and Boroughbridge before picking up the A59 but that was always a bit of an oddity. The 1922 numbering also had the A1 zigzagging along country lanes between Darlington and Topcliffe along what is now the A167. This was rather odd and didn't last very long. By 1932 both the A1 and A66 had settled on the line they would occupy for the next 40 years.

If however you look back prior to 1922 the A66 was a major drovers road that was used to send cattle to market from Cumbria and SW Scotland to Darlington , Stockton and York at least as far back as Roman times. Scotch Corner was the location of a major battle between the Legions and the local tribe (Brigantes) to establish who controlled this vital route.
After the A1 was rerouted along the A66 between Scotch Corner and Boroughbridge, the former A66 between Boroughbridge and York would become the A1079 until 1935 and its status as the more important route was reflected at Green Hammerton, where the A59 terminated and traffic heading from Harrogate to York had to give way to traffic from Boroughbridge. It meant also that there was temporarily a rare occasion where a 2 digit A road terminated on a 4 digit A road and the A59 TOTSO was only removed when Green Hammerton was bypassed.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by Mattemotorway »

Well, the new update on the Quarter Inch maps proves that, yes, the A66(M) was numbered from the start!

Which means the A66 ended in Darlington for a very brief period.
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Re: A67(M)?

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wrinkly wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 20:53The three first schemes to include gantry signs on motorways all opened in the early months of 1965. The other two were M6 Preston-Lancaster, with gantry signs at J32, and M4 Chiswick-Langley.
A gantry was also used at the M1/M10 split at St Albans, and I have photos of it that show it was a pre-Worboys/Anderson type, so presumably that was 1965 or earlier. From what you say above that suggests the M1 had gantry signs installed after it opened.
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Re: A67(M)?

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 16:32 A gantry was also used at the M1/M10 split at St Albans, and I have photos of it that show it was a pre-Worboys/Anderson type, so presumably that was 1965 or earlier. From what you say above that suggests the M1 had gantry signs installed after it opened.
If you're sure that the sign at the M1/M10 split was a gantry and not a butterfly then it could be that what I believed is wrong, and that there was a gantry before 1965. But I do remember that the M6 J32 one(s) was/were said at the time to be the first.
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Re: A67(M)?

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wrinkly wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 22:08
Chris5156 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 16:32 A gantry was also used at the M1/M10 split at St Albans, and I have photos of it that show it was a pre-Worboys/Anderson type, so presumably that was 1965 or earlier. From what you say above that suggests the M1 had gantry signs installed after it opened.
If you're sure that the sign at the M1/M10 split was a gantry and not a butterfly then it could be that what I believed is wrong, and that there was a gantry before 1965. But I do remember that the M6 J32 one(s) was/were said at the time to be the first.
Hmmm... I'd have sworn it was a gantry until you said that and now I'm doubting myself. Perhaps it was a butterfly. I have the picture somewhere - I'll have to dig it out and check.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by wrinkly »

Incidentally another early gantry, not on a motorway but owing its existence to a motorway, was over the southbound A449 approaching the A449/A5 Gailey roundabout. It was put up during the period when the M6 ended at J13 going south.
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Re: A67(M)?

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wrinkly wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 22:59 Incidentally another early gantry, not on a motorway but owing its existence to a motorway, was over the southbound A449 approaching the A449/A5 Gailey roundabout. It was put up during the period when the M6 ended at J13 going south.
Southbound A449? I would have expected it to make most sense on the northbound A449 approaching the junction, as traffic heading that way from Wolverhampton would be heading for the motorway, whereas on the southbound there would be a few houses wanting to head to the motorway, given they would need to be going north.
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by wrinkly »

Steven wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 08:02
Southbound A449? I would have expected it to make most sense on the northbound A449 approaching the junction, as traffic heading that way from Wolverhampton would be heading for the motorway, whereas on the southbound there would be a few houses wanting to head to the motorway, given they would need to be going north.
The gantry was not on the approach to the M6 junction. It was for traffic from the M6 (or from Stafford) approaching the A5 junction - a smaller roundabout with bigger queues. Traffic on the A449 south of J13 had greatly increased following the creation of a continuous motorway from J32 or J35 to J13. If I remember correctly the gantry signs were to advise traffic for London to be in the left lane and turn left onto the A5, and traffic for the M5 (which I think was in this case labelled "The South" rather than the South West, possibly for space reasons) to be in the right lane and go straight on towards Wolverhampton.
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Re: A67(M)?

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 22:29
wrinkly wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 22:08
Chris5156 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 16:32 A gantry was also used at the M1/M10 split at St Albans, and I have photos of it that show it was a pre-Worboys/Anderson type, so presumably that was 1965 or earlier. From what you say above that suggests the M1 had gantry signs installed after it opened.
If you're sure that the sign at the M1/M10 split was a gantry and not a butterfly then it could be that what I believed is wrong, and that there was a gantry before 1965. But I do remember that the M6 J32 one(s) was/were said at the time to be the first.
Hmmm... I'd have sworn it was a gantry until you said that and now I'm doubting myself. Perhaps it was a butterfly. I have the picture somewhere - I'll have to dig it out and check.
There was a gantry and a butterfly if memory serves. The gantry wasn't installed until later than the butterfly, though.

The Anderson Report of course had a drawing for the overhead signs at the M1/M45 split, which I dare say being bridge mounted were probably the first overhead signs on a motorway but I can't confirm this.
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Re: A67(M)?

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wrinkly wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 22:08
Chris5156 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 16:32 A gantry was also used at the M1/M10 split at St Albans, and I have photos of it that show it was a pre-Worboys/Anderson type, so presumably that was 1965 or earlier. From what you say above that suggests the M1 had gantry signs installed after it opened.
If you're sure that the sign at the M1/M10 split was a gantry and not a butterfly then it could be that what I believed is wrong, and that there was a gantry before 1965. But I do remember that the M6 J32 one(s) was/were said at the time to be the first.
Found it - from file MT 95/540 at the National Archives. The accompanying paperwork suggests it was being designed in summer 1964, but I can't find a record of the date it was erected. The photo is actually not meant to show off the gantry itself, it's to demonstrate alterations that were made to it when the M1 was closed for roadworks and the permanent signage was temporarily amended.
m1_m10.jpg
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Re: A67(M)?

Post by wrinkly »

If it was designed in 1964 then it could be that it was erected after the one(s) at M6 J32.

The butterfly is also visible in the background.

The photograph appears to have been taken at some time when the M1 mainline southward from the M10 split was closed, perhaps for a lengthy period - long enough to justify adding a sideways arrow for Watford. I was unaware that there had been any such closure, but perhaps it was when J5 was being remodelled for the extension south from J5.
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