SABRE Maps experiments

Talk about items you find on SABRE Maps - interesting features, historic road layouts etc. Also contains announcements of new maps available on SABRE Maps.

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Steven
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Thu Apr 02, 2020 18:56

The observant amongst members will have noticed that for the last few days, there's another experimental layer appeared on SABRE Maps.

Thanks to Truvelo, a large number of his redrawn plans taken from his visits to archives of various proposals around England have now been georeferenced and added to Maps. I think they're brilliant!

For me, a particular highlight is to use them along with the Map Fader functionality, where you can see what actually transpired instead of these plans, sometimes finding that the gaps left for a road proposal are still there; other times that the growth of a town has completely overwhelmed the proposed line and so it would be impossible to construct today.

Take a look for yourself, and give us your thoughts!
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by c2R » Thu Apr 02, 2020 23:49

As I've said already in another thread - these are brilliant and well worth a look - particularly, as Steven says, with the use of the map fader.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Ross Spur » Tue Apr 07, 2020 20:41

Excellent presentation. Thanks to all involved for their hard work.

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Sun Apr 12, 2020 15:26

Another new experiment today, with a map scan kindly donated by FosseWay.

Your clue is that it's on the 1960 One Inch layer - as it's the nearest thing we have to an appropriate layer for the map!

What do you think of it? Should we add more? Should it go somewhere else, maybe even on its own layer?
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by c2R » Sun Apr 12, 2020 20:21

Steven wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 15:26
Another new experiment today, with a map scan kindly donated by FosseWay.

Your clue is that it's on the 1960 One Inch layer - as it's the nearest thing we have to an appropriate layer for the map!

What do you think of it? Should we add more? Should it go somewhere else, maybe even on its own layer?
I like that. I think it makes mose sense to stay on the layer its on... otherwise its layer could be quite lonely... It's interesting to see the differences in style between it and others on the layer....
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Truvelo » Sun Apr 12, 2020 20:54

I agree. An isolated outpost like that doesn't really need its own layer.

When using the fader I never realised until now the nearby GSJ is built on reclaimed land.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Sun Apr 12, 2020 21:41

Truvelo wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 20:54
When using the fader I never realised until now the nearby GSJ is built on reclaimed land.
Neither did I! It really messed with my head when I was georeferencing that part of the map as there was quite a lot that didn't seem to match up.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Wed Oct 28, 2020 20:46

I've put a new experimental layer online this evening, available in the OS One Inch layer group, from 1976 (yes, really) it's one of the OS Tourist series.

The Tourist series is odd - it's very bitza, at various scales - mostly One Inch in the period we can use, but there is also a Half Inch and a Quarter Inch map - the latter of which (Wales and The Marches) we've had a couple of examples of on the appropriate Quarter Inch layers for some time.

However, what's not really obvious on the Quarter Inch Tourist maps but is massively obvious on the One Inch maps is the different treatment of relief - rather than being primarily contour-based they are much more decorative, and more like the really early Fifth Edition Relief maps. Which means that they clash massively if you try to mix them up with the regular One Inch series, especially in areas where both are released in the same year.

So, I've (temporarily for now, unless people love it) put the North York Moors Revision C/*/*/* online from 1976 (so after the One Inch Seventh series was replaced by the 1:50,000 Landrangers) as it doesn't clash with any non-Tourist sheets so that people can see for themselves what I mean.

Given that there's a number of road changes caught only on Tourist maps and completely missed by the standard One Inch series such as a lovely temporary terminus on the A19 on the uploaded map (and maybe, just maybe the southern temporary terminus of the M6 Penrith Bypass on one of the Lake District revisions... :wink: ), they're worth having online.

The question therefore is, should Tourist maps get mixed in with standard One Inch sheets on the annual layer? Or do they clash too much visually and need to be on their own? The best place to compare the two is against the 1958 One Inch layer.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Nwallace » Wed Oct 28, 2020 20:59

How does that work for the copyright, I've got a few of the 1 inch tourist maps which were sold well into the 1980s

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Wed Oct 28, 2020 21:05

Nwallace wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 20:59
How does that work for the copyright, I've got a few of the 1 inch tourist maps which were sold well into the 1980s
It depends on what it says on the bottom of the map! Until about 1979, only major revisions incremented the copyright date which is how we can get away with OS maps that are less than 50 years old - the OS themselves have stated that it's the stated copyright date that's the relevant part, not the actual date of the map.

The full information can be found on this SABRE Wiki page.
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From the SABRE Wiki: SABRE Maps/OS Copyright :

In simple terms, Crown Copyright (for Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland maps) lasts for 50 complete years, so maps safely can be used on the 1st January after the 50 years are up. Government Copyright for Ordnance Survey Ireland mapping also lasts for 50 years. All other mapping has a copyright of 70 years or the life of the author plus 70 years for a work with a named author. This last clause means that all A-Z maps that specifically

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by c2R » Thu Oct 29, 2020 06:15

There's some lovely A19 upgrades within that one...!

I've got New Forest 1976 which is copyright 1972 - so not long for that now.

As for whether a separate layer or not... I suppose it depends how much overlap there is - on the one hand we don't want really lonely layers, but on the other we don't want to discard relief maps just because we get a non-relief version. The non-relief ones I think are more useful,but the relief ones and tourist ones are works of art!
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Oct 29, 2020 09:37

Steven wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 20:46
Given that there's a number of road changes caught only on Tourist maps and completely missed by the standard One Inch series such as a lovely temporary terminus on the A19 on the uploaded map (and maybe, just maybe the southern temporary terminus of the M6 Penrith Bypass on one of the Lake District revisions... :wink: ), they're worth having online.
Well now, looking at the Teesside area, I'm far from convinced of the accuracy of the mapping. The A174 Parkway is on the map, but unnumbered, while the old A174 - immediately renumbered variously B1380, A1032 and A1130 - is still coloured red and retains that number. There are two A171s between the (old) A174 and A1085 - the western one should be unclassified. And I really struggle to remember a time when A19 *actually* terminated at the Parkway roundabout - my memory, hazy as it is, is that it opened all as a piece down to Crathorne. Moving south a bit, Ingleby Cross should be by-passed by this date by A172. And looking at Guisborough, where I used to live, there are some areas of housing that had been there for some time in 1976 that are not represented. There's been some speculative mapmaking at work here, methinks.

Also, the county boundaries reflect the pre-1974 situation, and Cleveland does not exist, whereas the County Borough of Teesside still does.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 29, 2020 09:54

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 09:37
There's been some speculative mapmaking at work here, methinks.
Possibly, or it's just that the last full revision was 1966 (hence the copyright date). It is officially "reprinted with the addition of new major roads and revised tourist information" so I think it might well be just that it's ten years later than that.
Also, the county boundaries reflect the pre-1974 situation, and Cleveland does not exist, whereas the County Borough of Teesside still does.
Yep, but again that's not surprising as there is no boundary revision listed, so it will be from the 1966 base. Bit poor on the OS's part mind.


There is, of course, a third option along with "same layers as standard" and "different layers to standard" - that of "they're not worth having, given the server space requirements and the small amount of coverage".
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Truvelo » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:43

So does anyone know what the latest OS map is which is out of copyright?
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:26

Truvelo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:43
So does anyone know what the latest OS map is which is out of copyright?
It'll be something from 1978-79 where the last full revision was 1969 or before - there's a couple of Tourist maps and a few 1:25k maps in our usual areas of interest that will apply to.

The newest Quarter Inch out of copyright currently is from 1973, One Inch from 1974 and Half Inch from 1976, whilst Route Planning Maps increment with the year.
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by jgharston » Thu Oct 29, 2020 18:21

Discussing experiments, what would be nice is to be able to overlay the Historic Counties boundaries over other maps, particularly the modern OS mapping.

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 29, 2020 19:50

jgharston wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 18:21
Discussing experiments, what would be nice is to be able to overlay the Historic Counties boundaries over other maps, particularly the modern OS mapping.
Unfortunately it's not currently possible to overlay anything onto the modern OS mapping, as it uses a totally different methodology to everything else.

However, the Historic Counties layer group puts the county boundaries on top of modern OSM mapping if that's the sort of thing you're looking for? Or do you mean vector overlays, in a similar style to how the GB and Ireland outline works?
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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by jgharston » Sat Oct 31, 2020 21:42

Steven wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 19:50
jgharston wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 18:21
Discussing experiments, what would be nice is to be able to overlay the Historic Counties boundaries over other maps, particularly the modern OS mapping.
...
However, the Historic Counties layer group puts the county boundaries on top of modern OSM mapping if that's the sort of thing you're looking for? Or do you mean vector overlays, in a similar style to how the GB and Ireland outline works?
I want to see the hitoric boundaries overlaid on a map with the current boundaries. I can't work out how the Historic Counties layers would let me do that.

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Sun Nov 01, 2020 04:56

jgharston wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 21:42

I want to see the hitoric boundaries overlaid on a map with the current boundaries. I can't work out how the Historic Counties layers would let me do that.
Ah, OK, so something like a large version of the maps like on the Highway Authorities pages on the Wiki, such as Stockport Council?

As it stands, it's possible to do that on an individual Highway Authority level (including the two new Northamptonshire authorities due to be in operation in April 2021) by using the "Find" functionality within Maps. That works on everything other than "Modern OS Mapping" IIRC, but remember that there's modern OpenData layers available at both MiniScale and 1:250k.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Stockport Council :

Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council is the Highway Authority for all roads in the Metropolitan Borough of Stockport, with the exception of Trunk roads managed by [[]].

The council area lies mostly within the historic county of Cheshire, with the area north of the River Mersey being within Lancashire, and rural areas in the east lying within Derbyshire.


The following Primary Destinations are located within the council area:


The following

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Re: SABRE Maps experiments

Post by Steven » Wed Nov 18, 2020 09:30

Steven wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 09:54
There is, of course, a third option along with "same layers as standard" and "different layers to standard" - that of "they're not worth having, given the server space requirements and the small amount of coverage".
Are there any more thoughts on extending OSGB Tourist coverage?
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