A533 needs updating

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roadphotos
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A533 needs updating

Post by roadphotos » Sun Mar 08, 2020 01:52

I think the A533 needs updating on the Wiki. I believe that it has changed it's route at Runcorn and now goes over the Mersey Gateway Bridge. The Wiki still says that the A533 is the number of the road going over the old bridge which I believe is no longer the case

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by frediculous_biggs » Sun Mar 08, 2020 20:08

roadphotos wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 01:52
I think the A533 needs updating on the Wiki. I believe that it has changed it's route at Runcorn and now goes over the Mersey Gateway Bridge. The Wiki still says that the A533 is the number of the road going over the old bridge which I believe is no longer the case
The wiki can be edited by any SABRE member. Why not edit the page yourself? If you have any problems, contact the Wiki admins, who will be happy to help you

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Truvelo
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Truvelo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46

I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
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Owain
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Owain » Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42

Truvelo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46
I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by RichardA35 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:48

Owain wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42
Truvelo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46
I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Owain » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:09

RichardA35 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:48
Owain wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42
Truvelo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46
I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing
If I'd known that I could pay online - as I've done for the Dublin M50 and the Dartford Crossing - I would have driven over the bridge!

All I saw as I approached was a sign telling me that there was a toll; it might have had more details on it, but I could hardly stop the car to read everything on the sign, so I just took the exit to avoid embarrassment.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:35

Owain wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:09
RichardA35 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:48
Owain wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42


Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing
If I'd known that I could pay online - as I've done for the Dublin M50 and the Dartford Crossing - I would have driven over the bridge!

All I saw as I approached was a sign telling me that there was a toll; it might have had more details on it, but I could hardly stop the car to read everything on the sign, so I just took the exit to avoid embarrassment.
The signs are shocking in this regard, but they have since changed to have the Congestion Charge symbol which you're supposed to be able translate into meaning "pay online".

The bridge is actually signed a congestion charge zone now.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Truvelo » Tue Mar 10, 2020 13:42

It would make sense to introduce a standardised toll sign which is used throughout the country that is instantly recognisable. The congestion charge symbol would be one such idea. In the US they have a yellow tab on ADS signs with "last exit before toll" which is used nationwide.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 06:30

Truvelo wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 13:42
It would make sense to introduce a standardised toll sign which is used throughout the country that is instantly recognisable. The congestion charge symbol would be one such idea. In the US they have a yellow tab on ADS signs with "last exit before toll" which is used nationwide.
I agree, the C symbol should be amended in the TSRGD to mean any general toll applies, but that's using common sense...

The Warburton Bridge uses the C symbol following the rebuilding of the burnt down toll booth.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Big L » Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:23

C for Ctoll? I see confusion ahead!
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:53

Big L wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:23
C for Ctoll? I see confusion ahead!
The general industry term is a road user charge, toll is just a layman term.

If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Alderpoint » Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:06

Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:53
If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
If they introduce a confusing symbol which 75% of the country will hardly ever come across yet *must* comply with, they need to publicise and explain it widely.

When the Dartford Crossing went gate-less the signage was initially appalling - very few signs, tiny and meaningless to those who didn't know what they meant. Now all the VMSs approaching from around 20 miles away are telling users they need to pay a charge.
Let it snow.

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:13

Alderpoint wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:06
Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:53
If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
If they introduce a confusing symbol which 75% of the country will hardly ever come across yet *must* comply with, they need to publicise and explain it widely.

When the Dartford Crossing went gate-less the signage was initially appalling - very few signs, tiny and meaningless to those who didn't know what they meant. Now all the VMSs approaching from around 20 miles away are telling users they need to pay a charge.
The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.

We need to stop making excuses for ignorance - it isn't a defence in law and it shouldn't be for any driving issue. It's incumbent on YOU (generic) to update your knowledge and retain competence to drive.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Chris5156 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43

Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:13
The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.
I agree that the "C" symbol isn't new; it's been in use in London and Durham since 2002 and it's been, as you say, in the Highway Code and Know Your Traffic Signs for years too. I also agree it's not unreasonable to expect drivers to familiarise themselves with changes to motoring law and road signs.

On the other hand, though, I'd argue that a red circle with a "C" in it is a crap way to tell people that they have to pay to use a road. It's just not a well-conceived sign.

It only exists in that form because it was originally used for "congestion charges", but even then it was pretty obscure. Now apparently it just means a "charge", which means the single letter is standing in for a word that most drivers would never use. So while drivers should take the time to learn the signs, I think there's also a responsibility on the government bodies that design these things to make signs as clear and intuitive as possible, and that plainly hasn't been done here.

I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Johnathan404 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 01:03

Chris5156 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43
I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
Yes! I've been calling for this for a while, but my suggestion was a blue circle, as in "you must Pounds". It could then be used on ADS, direction signs and entry points just like the buses only sign.

It still wouldn't explicitly say that it's a toll road, but even most foreign drivers would recognise that this symbol means you'll need money. It could also easily be adopted across Europe with local symbols, although evidently nobody in Europe agrees that it's a good idea otherwise somebody would have tried it.

I even thought that where there are tolls with a simple charging structure, which are rare but have their own merits, you could put the price on the sign. The Dublin Port Tunnel, for example, could just say "you must €3", with "HGVs free" in an exemption plate*.

* - yes you would need to factor in the €10 peak hour charge, but go easy, I'm thinking aloud here.
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 09:47

Chris5156 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43
Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:13
The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.
I agree that the "C" symbol isn't new; it's been in use in London and Durham since 2002 and it's been, as you say, in the Highway Code and Know Your Traffic Signs for years too. I also agree it's not unreasonable to expect drivers to familiarise themselves with changes to motoring law and road signs.

On the other hand, though, I'd argue that a red circle with a "C" in it is a crap way to tell people that they have to pay to use a road. It's just not a well-conceived sign.

It only exists in that form because it was originally used for "congestion charges", but even then it was pretty obscure. Now apparently it just means a "charge", which means the single letter is standing in for a word that most drivers would never use. So while drivers should take the time to learn the signs, I think there's also a responsibility on the government bodies that design these things to make signs as clear and intuitive as possible, and that plainly hasn't been done here.

I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
That could work - or, we adopt the internationally accepted sign and use it on signs like the Spanish do.

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Chris5156 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 22:22

Bryn666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 09:47
Chris5156 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43
I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
That could work - or, we adopt the internationally accepted sign and use it on signs like the Spanish do.

https://static3-sevilla.abc.es/media/an ... 49@abc.jpg

In reality we'll do our own thing because we always do.
I'd be equally happy with that. It's just really unfortunate that the "C" has become the de facto sign for a charge or toll.

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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by c2R » Mon Mar 16, 2020 23:30

The irony being that the international sign includes the word toll in English.... Sigh....
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Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 07:46

c2R wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 23:30
The irony being that the international sign includes the word toll in English.... Sigh....
The Spanish one does, the French dies not - it says HALTE PÉAGE.
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