Wiki Project - road signs

Found anything interesting on "The Roader's Digest" - the SABRE Wiki? Talk about articles in here.

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rileyrob
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Wiki Project - road signs

Post by rileyrob » Sun May 06, 2012 17:43

I am hoping to improve our coverage of Road Signs on the Wiki, and to that end I have created an example of what I think we could do:
Warning_Sign/Double_Bend
I have started with what I hope is one of the simplest signs, to give an idea, but doubtless there is a lot more to it than what I have added so far!

Essentially, there will be a short introduction explaining how the sign is (should be) used, which I haven't written, and then sections describing the Pre-Worboys design, Warboys Design, Irish Design and any other pertinent changes over the years. This should include Welsh, Irish and Scottish Gaelic wording, changes from imperial to metric and so on.

My biggest problem is that I know very little about signs, other than seeing them at the side of the road and knowing what they mean. So, if anyone out there could help out, please feel free to create a Wiki page, or if you're not happy using the Wiki, use this thread to post information, which I can transfer. Remember, the information we need is on specific signs, not sign design or materials in general. That is covered elsewhere (although it may need improvement / expansion!)

We also need photos of some of the rarer signs for illustrations, or even better if someone has the skills to produce diagrams of each sign as many of the photos already in the wiki galleries are too small within the photo to be suitable.
Rob.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Warning Sign/Double Bend :
Double Bend sign. - Coppermine - 21316.JPG

Before the Worboys Report of 1964 the Double Bend sign conformed to the earlier design system with a Red Triangle at the top of the post above the rectangular plate with the symbol above 'Double Bend'. The symbol was similar to the one still in use today, in other words a black line depicting the road travelling through a capital 'N' shape. The symbol could be reversed, as it still is today, to depict which way the first bend

... Read More

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by SC2 » Sun May 06, 2012 18:18

There's a load of lovely, vector warning signs here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... ed_Kingdom.

Why do all the hard work if someone's done it already :)

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Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Haydn1971 » Sun May 06, 2012 21:08

Well a lot of them are technically incorrect and if all we are going to do is copy from Wikipedia, it makes us as bad as the Wikipedians who copy from Sabre !
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by SC2 » Sun May 06, 2012 21:32

What the ones of the warning signs? It says they are from the DfT traffic signs image database so I struggle to understand how they could be incorrect.

Regarding copying wikipedia, it isn't Lola anything particularly difficult or requiring of effort has gone into putting the images there, compared with some things they've copied off here.

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Bryn666 » Sun May 06, 2012 22:05

There are some homemade jobs on there but generally the warning signs are OK. However they are in some cases out of date.
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by SC2 » Sun May 06, 2012 22:21

That's what I thought.

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by rileyrob » Sun May 06, 2012 22:24

I would say that those attributed to the UK Government are OK to use, as being accurate of a sign design. Whether or not they are current is slightly irrelevant, as the purpose of the pages is to display all known variations of the signage, so as long as we indicate that they have been superseded we're right!

I've done a few more sign pages this evening, and progress can be tracked here:
Wiki:Road_Signs_Project
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From the SABRE Wiki: Wiki :
... Read More

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Mattsignmaker » Sun May 06, 2012 23:05

I have chaper 8 saved on my laptop so if you need any diag's let me know.
Image

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Glen » Sun May 06, 2012 23:39

I have been meaning for a while to make a template to create lists of all the signs in TSRGD, which I think would be a good starting point to get some information on signs, then we can go into further detail on the ones which need it.

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by AndyB » Mon May 07, 2012 01:11

I can't remember for sure, but I think the modern double bend sign post-dates the Z sign, if not as late as 1975, but I don't have access to my 1975 KYTS book.

The N may have the same angles as the Z, but the parallel bits are a lot longer than the top and bottom of the Z!

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Conekicker » Mon May 07, 2012 07:52

Minor edit to the road narrows sign page. If anyone wants them, I've got the old Irish Traffic Signs Manual in PDF format. The new one is here:

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id ... G&loc=2635
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by rileyrob » Thu May 10, 2012 10:10

When were the code numbers allocated to roadsigns? Was it 1964, thus informing us of which are original and which are subsequent additions, or was it more recently? Also, there are some gaps on the page swakestone causeway linked to above - what symbols were they?
514 / 8 / 9
525 / 6 / 7
532 - 542
546 / 7
560 / 1 / 563 - 573
575 - 580

600 / 3 / 4 / 7 / 8
620 / 1 / 3 / 4 / 7 / 8
630 / 1 / 4 / 5 / 637 - 641
643 - 651 / 653 - 659
661 / 2 / 9

Being the obvious ones. I suspect some (many) have never been used?
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I don't like thinking about how badly I am doing.

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by SC2 » Thu May 10, 2012 20:27

From what I can gather, the numbers were allocated in 1964. I think the gaps may be for withdrawn signs, but I'm not certain about any of that.

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by dave » Fri May 11, 2012 22:08

I'm not sure if I'm being incredibly thick here... or if I'm just missing the point :confused: . Anyway I may as well look stupid:

The DfT post the Traffic Signs Manual online. This has all the current guidance on how to use a huge number of the signs (and should cover all the 2002 ones):
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/traf ... ns-manual/

Also look at the 2002 TSRGD:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002 ... tents/made

And the Previous TSRGD:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994 ... tents/made

I still can't find the 2010 TSRGD - did they ever get around to it?

Amazon has a couple of the older editions of the Traffic Signs Manual, so does ebay (it amazes me there aren't more, and I didn't find any older TSRGD's). In my old office we had the 1980 (ish) and 2 previous TSRGD's as well as all the old Traffic Signs Manuals, now I only have an old Chapter 4. If you can find a Local Authority Traffic Technician somewhere they'll probably have all the old books in their office, somewhere. Perhaps SABRE could buy them and preserve them for Posterity - the older ones should be out of copyright? so presumably could be digitised.

If you don't like stealing the images from the statute books, many sign designs are pretty easy to replicate using Word autoshapes (you can get the fonts here http://www.cbrd.co.uk/fonts/) - good enough for 150px sizes anyway, especially if you take care and refer to Chap 7. Or, any friendly Traffic Technician should have access to Sign Design Software to produce the design. Rob - maybe I'll buy you a licence for Christmas :laugh: .

There are many many working drawings available:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/traf ... -drawings/
I presume there may also be some older ones.

How about an FOI to the DfT for all the archived/out-of-print sign design manuals, TSRGD's and Working Drawings?

Oh and all the guidance ever produced for any sensible country is available on the last few pages of this document:
http://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/data/file ... inance.pdf
Ok I admit it, there is actually a full size A4 somewhere rather than this cut-off version...

Dave

p.s. Rob - the Z and the N are different, the N has a point on it.
p.p.s. The forum page says you're not allowed to talk about road signs here. Not sure where you are supposed to though...
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by dave » Fri May 11, 2012 22:24

Anyway, having posted all the links - some queries/thoughts which have always bugged me...
  • There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any guidance on the use of bend signs and chevrons. This leads to huge inconsistencies across the country with some almost non-existent bends having huge chevrons and some hairpin bends having no warning. I therefore always ignore bend warning signs as unreliable.
  • There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any good guidance on the use of warning signs for things like accompanied horses or bikes. This again leads to discrepancies in their use - largely depending upon the environment you are in. I know there are Horse Warning signs in Exeter for very few horses, yet in North Somerset there are many horses and no signs (to name 2 places I know well)
  • There is a whole schedule of directional type signs, these seem to cover every eventuality except the one you want to sign...
  • There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any good guidance on the use of Brown Tourist Signs. This often leads to huge arguments between (for example) the HA and the Local Council.
  • There are many signs which most people (including many Traffic Technicians) don't know what they mean. Minimum speed limits (in fact most circular signs with a blue background), No Vehicles, No Motor Vehicle - Except for Access, No Explosives
  • Why isn't the School Lollipop in the TSRGD? I think it was...
  • I could go on...
I think Signs is a Huge Topic, one which is a whole new headache for anyone trying to keep it up to date. But hey lets do it.

One thing though, and I won't change it as it'll need some significant thought, the menu page as is creates some interesting and unhelpful groupings (in my opinion) and misses signs out. I don't know how anyone else feels, but where they have one I would like to see TSRGD references.
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by michael769 » Fri May 11, 2012 23:02

dave wrote:
I still can't find the 2010 TSRGD - did they ever get around to it?
They was a year late:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011 ... tents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011 ... tents/made
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Debaser » Sun May 13, 2012 15:17

dave wrote:Anyway, having posted all the links - some queries/thoughts which have always bugged me...
  • There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any guidance on the use of bend signs and chevrons. This leads to huge inconsistencies across the country with some almost non-existent bends having huge chevrons and some hairpin bends having no warning. I therefore always ignore bend warning signs as unreliable.
I haven't got it on this PC, but try 'PR494 Bend Treatments on the A377 between Cowley and Bishops Tawton - Final Report' by TRL, also 'Hazard Warning Signs and Markings on Bends on Single Carriageway Trunk Roads' by the Scottish Executive.
[*]There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any good guidance on the use of warning signs for things like accompanied horses or bikes. This again leads to discrepancies in their use - largely depending upon the environment you are in. I know there are Horse Warning signs in Exeter for very few horses, yet in North Somerset there are many horses and no signs (to name 2 places I know well)
Pass.
[*]There is a whole schedule of directional type signs, these seem to cover every eventuality except the one you want to sign...
Amen.
[*]There is not, to the best of my knowledge, any good guidance on the use of Brown Tourist Signs. This often leads to huge arguments between (for example) the HA and the Local Council.
There's DMRB, Volume 8, TA93/04, TD52/04 and TA94/04. Having said that, their criteria seem to go out of the window the moment the HA come under pressure from business owners/political lobbying.
I think Signs is a Huge Topic, one which is a whole new headache for anyone trying to keep it up to date.
+1

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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by cb a1 » Sun May 13, 2012 15:48

Debaser wrote:There's DMRB, Volume 8, TA93/04, TD52/04 and TA94/04. Having said that, their criteria seem to go out of the window the moment the HA come under pressure from business owners/political lobbying.
Anecdote from a now retired ex-civil service colleague.

A civil servant was invited to a village council meeting to discuss signing.
Village Rep: "We would like a brown sign on the new motorway that now by-passes our village."
Civil Servant: "Sorry, but your village does not meet the Scottish Office criteria for a brown sign".
Village Rep (thinking they held an ace): "Ah, but the village up the road has a brown sign."
Civil Servant: "Hmm, so it does. I'll ensure it's removed as soon as possible."
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by J N Winkler » Sun May 13, 2012 16:22

Just a quick follow-up on TSRGD diagram numbering: the system currently in use (500 series for warning signs, 600 series for regulatory signs, 1000 series for carriageway markings, 2000 series for directional informatory signs, etc.) is not original. I believe it was introduced with TSRGD 1981. TSRGD 1964 and TSRGD 1975 used a different system, which (if memory serves) placed the directional informatory signs in 1000 series.
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Re: Wiki Project - road signs

Post by Debaser » Sun May 13, 2012 16:41

cb a1 wrote:
Debaser wrote:There's DMRB, Volume 8, TA93/04, TD52/04 and TA94/04. Having said that, their criteria seem to go out of the window the moment the HA come under pressure from business owners/political lobbying.
Anecdote from a now retired ex-civil service colleague.

A civil servant was invited to a village council meeting to discuss signing.
Village Rep: "We would like a brown sign on the new motorway that now by-passes our village."
Civil Servant: "Sorry, but your village does not meet the Scottish Office criteria for a brown sign".
Village Rep (thinking they held an ace): "Ah, but the village up the road has a brown sign."
Civil Servant: "Hmm, so it does. I'll ensure it's removed as soon as possible."
Well in this case the advice from on high at the start of the project was "use the DMRB criteria only, ignore what is or isn't there now".
Unfortunately, as soon as some letters were written this changed to "just put back what was there already", after the design was 'complete' and half the signs had gone in. Then people complain about the number of different tourist signs, and why didn't 'they' combine them into one, etc. ... :roll:




(Also, unlike your example above, our village had their local MP on board, therefore nothing was going to get in the way of them getting 'their' sign).

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