The Great C Road hunt!

[Nwallace]

In case it's of any use
There is a list of Fife C (and A,B, K, D, Q and U) roads available on this FOI (diverted to the regs that make publishing the list mandatory) from 2015
here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... _roads_140

The list used to be on the website but has been replaced by a map

Note that K, D and Q roads are numbered but U's are not.

C roads are also classed as Secondary roads by Fife
There doesn't seem to be any sort of zoning there

For example C1 is in Leven, C2 is near Cardenden and then C3 is the old main route through Leuchars.
And it's not age related as the Leuchars bypass was build in the late 70s

Looking at the map
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1

Some of the roads are a surprise, the best route to Balmerino from Gauldry is Coarse Brae, which is Q46 while the worst option is abbey Road which is very steep and very narrow and is the C64, The C46 runs from Newburgh, TOTSO's at Hazelton and carries onto the junction at Wormit,

So far that all shows a pattern, however the Q64 is at Bow of Fife blowing that out the water!



D roads are 4th class roads in the Dunfermline area
K roads are 4th class roads in the Kirkcaldy area
Q roads are 4th class roads in the Cupar area

U roads appear to be residential streets that are either no through roads or distribute onto no through roads


IT also confirms that the A91 is absolutely definitely a Fife council road and not a Transport Scotland road.

[Steven]

One thing that's worth bearing in mind is that we're looking to capture Class III (or Classified Unnumbered) roads here. Many authorities also number their Unclassified roads, with some even numbering footpaths.

It's the Class III roads (usually "C") that we're after for this exercise.

[rileyrob]

In case it's of any use
There is a list of Fife C (and A,B, D, Q and U) roads available on this FOI (diverted to the regs that make publishing the list mandatory) from 2015
here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... _roads_140 ...

When I first read your post, I groaned inwardly. Whilst I'm very grateful that you've found the list, I expected another 300 C roads to sort out due to the size of Fife and the density of the road network. Fortunately, there are only just over 100, so hopefully it won't take too long to sort through them.

It means in Scotland I'm now missing proper, complete lists of C roads for:
Shetland
Dundee
Clackmannanshire
East Dunbartonshire
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Renfrewshire
East Ayrshire
South Lanarkshire
And I think some of those might be findable online if we keep looking!

[Nwallace]

One thing that's worth bearing in mind is that we're looking to capture Class III (or Classified Unnumbered) roads here. Many authorities also number their Unclassified roads, with some even numbering footpaths.

It's the Class III roads (usually "C") that we're after for this exercise.

I'm aware of this, it's not entirely clear what Fife consider Class III roads, as the C roads are often listed as "Secondary" routes, as are B roads, while the Q, K and D roads are occasionally fairly major routes in their area while the U's are almost all residential streets. I felt it important to note this.

[Nwallace]

In case it's of any use
There is a list of Fife C (and A,B, D, Q and U) roads available on this FOI (diverted to the regs that make publishing the list mandatory) from 2015
here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... _roads_140 ...

When I first read your post, I groaned inwardly. Whilst I'm very grateful that you've found the list, I expected another 300 C roads to sort out due to the size of Fife and the density of the road network. Fortunately, there are only just over 100, so hopefully it won't take too long to sort through them.

It means in Scotland I'm now missing proper, complete lists of C roads for:
Shetland
Dundee
Clackmannanshire
East Dunbartonshire
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Renfrewshire
East Ayrshire
South Lanarkshire
And I think some of those might be findable online if we keep looking!

I'm sure Dundee used to have a list but it was replaced with the map, however the person behind the Fife FOI request appears to have been carrying out a similar activity so it may be easy enough to find them on that site.

The Fife list is in a reasonably good format for working with, however the Western Isle one is hopeless as it's just scans from 1996, a housing estate plan and then a note about there being an additional 13Km of C and U class roads and that they know they need to update the list!

I'm happy to assist in other ways too.

Some of these may already have been found in the hunt

Shetland - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-640429
List there but it's just a pdf so a pain to process 3.5 pages of C road sections

Dundee - Pointed him at their website, which is just the map

Clackmannanshire - Provided him with their web link - http://www.clacks.gov.uk/transport/adop ... btn=Search
Use the SQL Wildcard character (%) and select the area you want.
1167 results but select all areas and scroll to the bottom of the list for the Cs!
62 entries and most of them are sections of a C road.

East Dunbartonshire - No numbers just road names and classification - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-652498

Glasgow - Glasgow quoted him £26 an hour for staff time required to assist him

Edinburgh - Erm that's completely different from everyone else - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-644680

Renfrewshire - No numbers again but with names, the classifications are a bit different! - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-644731

East Ayrshire - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-644337
Rubbish format to work with again but doesn't seem to be that many

South Lanarkshire - Refused his FOI on the basis that it's on their website see https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1
However the website http://www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/info ... pted_roads now tells you to go and ask at their roads office.


Hope there's something new in all that, and if I can help in anyway.

[rileyrob]

Thanks again, that's looking very promising, a little update then:

It means in Scotland I'm now missing proper, complete lists of C roads for:
Shetland
Dundee - Might be possible to prove the numbers are the old Tayside numbers, and so some will be shared with Angus.
Clackmannanshire
East Dunbartonshire - We can probably put together a list of C routes, but no numbers
Glasgow
Edinburgh - Looks like they predominantly use ZC numbers
Renfrewshire - See ED above
East Ayrshire
South Lanarkshire

We're tantalizingly Close to a full house!

[Nwallace]

I wonder if a dig around roadwork orders for Dundee will unveil something?
There's been a lot of Scottish Water works going on the last few years as they're replacing a water main and causing chaos in the process.
And of course, the new roads down the water front didn't have names when they were first planned, though they did have placeholders. hm.

[rileyrob]

I've started looking at Shetland, and its all a bit confusing.
The route numbers are in the format:
C0101-005/00 (The list is here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-640429)
Traces are all done, here: Shetland_Islands_Council_(Class_III_roads)

To make this easier to explain I shall use the following:
C0xxx = C
-xxx = D
/xx =E
In some cases, the C numbers describe a continuous route, as you would expect, with D and E defining sections. However, in other places, it is the CD part that describes a single route, the E defining sections, and one C number having several unrelated D routes.
It is particularly bad in Lerwick, where the C104, 105 and 106 numbers are all muddled up and apply to different sections of streets - Market Street and Hillhead are parts of the C104 & C105, Commercial Street is parts of the C105 and C106, but each with different D numbers.

Elsewhere, routes seem to have been added to the C road network (notably lengths of ex A roads), and simply given a C number that is already in use nearby, with a different D number. There are also places where all of the roads in a village are part of the same C number, but because they cross each other, sometimes more than once, there are different D numbers in play.

My question is, how to classify them on the Wiki. Do I do a page for each C number, and describe the D routes like we do the two parts of the A34 for instance, or do I do a page for each CD number, even when they may be continuous?

[c2R]

That is rather complicated. Thankfully the LA area isn't that big!

I think that I would just have C number pages and then describe all -D numbers within the page, as otherwise we'll have a lot of short pages.

We could potentially use coloured osm traces on the maps to differentiate the different sections to help in the explanatory text - the format supports it, but currently the tracing mechanism we have on SABRE maps does not (I think one of the devs was planning to look at enhancing it in this way)

[A303Chris]

Whoever did the Reading list, well done. As some of you may be aware I brought in the classified road numbering in Reading in 2007 and as a roads enthusiast decided they had to be in zones, Since I joined private practice in 2015, it looks like someone has finally amended the town centre following the changes.

Hampshire has A, B, C and U classifications. By using this tool on the HCC website you can find the classification of all roads within HCC and it can be put down to area.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to categorise the whole county.

[frediculous_biggs]

I'm adding on the C roads in Medway currently, and it's rather good fun (helps that there's only about 30, although one number is duplicated! )

Anyway, I believe one of the roads listed in my source is a typo.

It's a standalone C225, that connects at both ends to the C255. What should I do in this case?

I was going to add the whole thing to C255, and write a small explanation. Should I create a C225 page, and if so, should it be done differently to identify that it is a suspect typo?

[rileyrob]

I have come across a few Typos as I've criss-crossed Scotland, and treated them as such - in other words include the C225 description on the C255 page and then add a sentence at the bottom explaining the presumed typo on the council list. In most of the cases I've found, I've been lucky enough to find cross-references proving the typo, so if you look at descriptions of other joining roads you may hit lucky (There are many different formats for the lists so Medway may not be laid out like that).
You may want to add a redirect page for the C225 too.

It's interesting that just after C2R and I were discussing duplicate numbers in Cambridgeshire, you should find one in Medway on the same day - If you discount suffixed numbers, I'm not aware of any in Scotland!!

[frediculous_biggs]

Excellent, thank you.

I have added a section about the typo, and created a redirect page.

Yes, it is amusing that in a local authority of only 24 C roads, they've managed to get a duplicate!

[frediculous_biggs]

I have another question:

Medway Council's list of roads states that the final section of what is the B2097 (East Row and Victoria Street), is numbered as the C371, and the B2097 actually continues along Crow Lane, ending on Rochester High Street. This contradicts with every single map, although there are no signs on the ground to suggest either way.

I have added a section to the B2097 page explaining this. Should I also create a C371 page, with a similar explanation? This would allow the list of C roads to be comprehensive.

Also, should I leave the B2097 page as it is and not touch the route map, trace, etc? What is the "correct" route of the road?

[c2R]

Now that is an interesting question; I'd say that we definitely should have the page for the C number, and then document the situation.

As I said to Rob earlier, it seems that some authorities are better than others at numbering their C roads, and doing so logically. For example, the duplicate numbers we've come across. Also, while Herts for example have allocated C numbers to some roads that have been bypassed (e.g. C183), they've not gone back and removed classification from some truncated parts of C road that have ended up split off from the main road. The C192 in Cambridgeshire is another example of this - it now doesn't connect with any other classified road. But in other parts of Cambridgeshire, C roads have been declassified where they've been split off. But then there are some villages with quite main former "A" roads running through them that aren't classified.

Perhaps this explains somewhat why these aren't regularly signed, there lacks consistency between authorities (or within the same authority)

[rileyrob]

From my experience in Scotland, the council lists cannot be regarded as accurate or definitive, but they are the best we have (and from what Ive heard from people in the councils, they are the best they have too). For instance, the Western Isles list is dated 1996, and the Aberdeenshire lists largely ignore the fact that the A90 now reaches Peterhead & Fraserburgh. As such, you have to wonder what else is wrong.

On the flip side, I don't think that maps can be considered to be any better, even OS maps. As a few examples, which I have treated in different ways, depending on the evidence I've been able to find:
C1-52_(North_Ayrshire) in Irvine, which appears to now be part of the A736 and B7081, after they were re-routed away from the town centre area.
Townend Road in West_Dunbartonshire_Council_(Class_III_roads) (bottom of un-numbered list), which OSM show as the B830, and so do some other maps, because it is the prioritised route for traffic on the ground.
C104_(Clackmannanshire) which is confused with the B908, both in terms of being mapped as a spur, and also because the B908 now follows part of the old C104.
And who knows what route the A907 takes through Dunfermline these days - the council lists suggest the C66_(Fife) follows part of what is often mapped as the A907.

This is just a snapshot, and there are many other absurdities to find - such as the C1187 (Highland), C1189, C1191, C1193 in Inverness. Why change the number each time the street name changes? this doesn't happen elsewhere in the Highlands.

There are also lots of C roads where the route as described in the council list is no longer intact, such as the C27 (North Ayrshire) or the C23 (North Lanarkshire).

[frediculous_biggs]

Now that I realised the road number should be in bold on the first mention and that a "Category:Roads numbered Cxxx" page needs to be created, I have completed all the C-roads in Medway. Any problems, please let me know. Was rather enjoyable - might slowly start to do Kent!

[c2R]

Now that I realised the road number should be in bold on the first mention and that a "Category:Roads numbered Cxxx" page needs to be created, I have completed all the C-roads in Medway. Any problems, please let me know. Was rather enjoyable - might slowly start to do Kent!

Haha, yes, thought I'd do a couple of bits to show you in the history how it was set up. Kent (much like Cambridgeshire that I'm slowly working through) could take a while.

The other thing you could do to further enhance your Medway ones is to grab some photos from geograph to illustrate them....

It is of course much more interesting to do those roads that you're familiar with...

[frediculous_biggs]

Haha, yes, thought I'd do a couple of bits to show you in the history how it was set up. Kent (much like Cambridgeshire that I'm slowly working through) could take a while.

The other thing you could do to further enhance your Medway ones is to grab some photos from geograph to illustrate them....

It is of course much more interesting to do those roads that you're familiar with...

The only list I can find for Kent is some awful formatted PDF that is a nightmare, so I've put in a FOI request for the data in a more usable format.

I will certainly look through Geograph for some. If not, some short drives (/walks) may be needed!

Yes, there is a nice feeling to have all "my local" ones complete!

[c2R]

Ah yes, i see - they've got a very nice footpath and RoW viewer so it seems a bit strange that they don't have one for adopted Highways. I've been attempting to match those that Cambridgeshire provided with their online map - but that's creating more questions than answers, e.g. C262 (Cambridgeshire)

You're right, a FoI request may be the way forward!