Anyone for Trams?

[c2R]

I've created a new wiki page called Tramway - Trams are a becoming once again a feature of urban roads within the UK (and never really went away elsewhere in the world); they're also an important feature of the historical road network.

I was going to do some research and write it up to fill the page with content, but figured that there might be someone already on here who has a particular love of trams and their history (clearly pertaining to the infrastructure and signage, rather than the types of tram) - so if anyone else fancies a go at adding some content to the page, please feel free.

Similarly, if anyone wants to have a go at writing something for Trolleybusses then we could do with some detail about them.

[Sabrista]

You forgot Nottingham, which also has a modern tram system.

Serena

[roadtester]

You forgot Nottingham, which also has a modern tram system.

Birmingham should probably be in there too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Metro

[FleetlinePhil]

I think Blackpool needs a full entry rather than just as a preserved system, as most of the trams operated date from 2011. True, some very venerable additional vehicles are operated at times, but in most respects it is a fully modernised interurban tramway that just happens to date from the 19th century.

Also, what about the Seaton Tramway in Devon? For those unaware, this 2'9" gauge railway operates replica Edwardian style trams on an old railway trackbed for approximately 3 miles from Seaton to Colyton. In case this seems a bit tangential for a roads website, it does have a road interface where it crosses the A5032 with an ungated railway crossing. As an aside, I had a pretty alarming incident in 1991 when using the tramway with my wife and young son: seated in the open balcony upstairs at the front, we realised that a car heading west on the A5032 at some speed was clearly not expecting to find a tram crossing its path . I'm not sure what the result of hitting a narrow gauge tram would be, but I had grabbed my son and braced, just in case. Fortunately, the car just about managed to stop, no doubt leaving its driver even more shaken than we were!

[c2R]

Thanks Rob for making these changes - everyone else, feel free to add your own knowledge as and when - anyone can edit the wiki...

[Chris Bertram]

The Black Country Living Museum has a tramway operating between the entrance building and the village area. This is in addition to the trolleybuses that run on selected days.

[Big Nick]

The Black Country Living Museum has a tramway operating between the entrance building and the village area. This is in addition to the trolleybuses that run on selected days.

The BCLM is a superb day out with plenty for road enthusiasts to marvel over. Proper old road signs, a toll house, old bikes and cars in a 1930s garage, trams and trolleybuses. And then there's the old houses and shops with actors inside to tell you what's what.

Tram enthusiasts will know of the National Tramway Museum at Crich in Derbyshire. A mile of track in a quarry dating back to the days of George Stephenson (of railway fame) is used to run dozens of trams from around the world, but mostly British. Lots of the buildings there have been rescued and rebuilt including the Red Lion pub which was demolished to make way for the A500 Queensway in Stoke on Trent.
Again, it makes for a good day out for all the family. Oh, and they have a Dr Who style TARDIS!

[wrinkly]

The LRTA website is a good source of info.

http://www.lrta.org/

[KeithW]

There is a useful resource on local public transport systems including trams and trolley buses at this site
http://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/

On Teesside I have fond memories of the Trolleybuses operated by the Teesside Railless Traction Board (TRTB for short) which ran from 1919 to the early 1970's between North Ormesby, Grangetown and Eston/Normanby.
http://lths.lutsociety.org.uk/library/PDF-062-2.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxOWQhzCunc

Unfortunately not only has the system gone so have many of the communities it served. Most of the homes and businesses in Cargo Fleet, North Ormesby and Grangetown were destroyed when they ran the D2 A66 through there.

There is a collection of more general bus , trolleybus and tram photos here
http://www.sct61.org.uk/

The mecca for all tramway and trolley bus enthusiasts must be the tramway museum at Crich in Derbyshire
https://www.tramway.co.uk/

A lose second is the Beamish Museum in the NEE which has its own tram system
https://www.beamish.org.uk/

[FleetlinePhil]

Crich is the mecca for trams certainly, but for trolleybuses it is probably here:http://www.sandtoft.org.uk/. Opening is more restricted, and there is not the general historical interest (or scenic grandeur) of Crich.

The East Anglia Transport Museum near Lowestoft, which I've sadly never got to, offers both trams and trolleybuses: http://eatransportmuseum.co.uk

[Ruperts Trooper]

I've been on Black Country Living Museum, Blackpool, Seaton and Crich National Tramway Museum - but used Derby trolleybuses regularly in the '60s until they ended and saw one of the blue (Walsall?) trolleys in operation later during a trip on the A5 across the Midlands.

Tramways were used extensively to shift quarry products and quarrymen, Ffestiniog Railway being the most famous but others on Devon and Cornwall I've walked some of their disused track-beds

[WHBM]

On a related matter, Blackpool long had a pre-Worboys, Llewellyn-Smith style, road sign "Tram Pinch". And here's such a sign for sale.

http://www.railwayana.net/NetAuction/Ma ... lot075.htm

Now I worked out what it was, by looking at the road layout that followed. But I wonder how many drivers understood it.

The sign lasted long into the current Worboys signage era, possibly because there was no current TSRGD equivalent.

[fras]

Probably the best information on UK tramways within a single book is "Great British Tramway Networks" originally published by the Light Railway Transport League, now called the "Light Rail Transit Association". I have got a copy of the 4th Edition published 1962, and have owned it since the mid 60s ! It contains information on every tramway ever built or planned in the UK and Ireland. There were nine pages of maps in the back of the book plus some in the various chapters. Anybody reading this book will be astonished at the size of some of the networks, and the variety of places that had tramways.

Unfortunately there isn't a similar book on UK trolleybuses, but I once had a book called "Trolleybus Trails" by J. Joyce which I found rather unsatisfying as it had no route maps, and I also found the content rather shallow, in fact there were one or two systems omitted. Joyce wrote a similar book on trams called "Tramway Twilight". Both books were good for photographs but contained no real detailed historical research. There are, of course, books on individual systems, and I have two, one on London Trolleybuses by Hugh Taylor, which is an absolute mine of information, and one on the LCC tramways by Robert J Harley, again, a real mine of information. This contains some wonderful photos of men installing conduit track, the very rare electric pick-up system used by the LCC.

[Big Nick]

Probably the best information on UK tramways within a single book is "Great British Tramway Networks" ..... It contains information on every tramway ever built or planned in the UK and Ireland.

Does this include systems that were planned but not built?
At Crich they have a massive map on the wall showing every tram network that ran in the UK. Some places you'd never even consider as having a network.

....the LCC tramways by Robert J Harley, again, a real mine of information. This contains some wonderful photos of men installing conduit track, the very rare electric pick-up system used by the LCC.

There is a manhole cover outside County Hall which clearly states - London County Council Tramways. I'd walked over it for years before looking down and realising. I assume it connected the public power supply to the trams.
Crich have a scale model of the conduit pickup method showing it worked at points.

[Steven]

This contains some wonderful photos of men installing conduit track, the very rare electric pick-up system used by the LCC.

Did they use the Lorain system?

[WHBM]

This contains some wonderful photos of men installing conduit track, the very rare electric pick-up system used by the LCC.

Did they use the Lorain system?

Lorain is quite a different technology, which seems to be making a comeback, probably until the unsafe fault conditions which led to it being dispensed with a century ago happen again.

Conduit has proper continuous conductor rails under the centre of the tracks, accessed through a narrow slot by a special device under the tram which bends around to touch the hidden power rail. They are (putting a highway engineer maintenance hat on) a considerable maintenance nuisance, requiring drainage for rainwater, periodic clearance of mud and leaves, liable to collapse from heavy road traffic, short circuits from thin metal objects which happen to fall through the slot (coins, tinfoil), etc.

London just had them in the central area so the streets "looked nice", and likewise the trams in Washington DC used them.

The latter still has the tracks left as they were, half a century after Washington's trams were given up, to maintain a "historic aspect". Not only that, but some were recently refurbished at considerable expense as the carriageway was steadily collapsing around them. Here's a section

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@38.90778 ... 312!8i6656

London has bits left as well

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.51904 ... 312!8i6656

[fras]

This contains some wonderful photos of men installing conduit track, the very rare electric pick-up system used by the LCC.

Did they use the Lorain system?

Wolvrhampton used a stud-contact system for power pickup for some years, but like all these clever wheezes to avoid overhead wires, they converted in the end because the system was too unreliable and costly to maintain. On the other hand the London conduit system was in service for 50 years, and the one in Washington DC, USA until the 60s.

Here's a site that describes the London conduit system

https://dewi.ca/trains/conduit/ploughs.html

The London system was by far the best because the system allowed for a very rapid switch between conduit and overhead operation. This was essential as the system expanded and the cost of conduit track became a real burden, also LCC cars ran into Croydon and other towns that had separately owned systema.

[Big L]

Assuming it ever actually happens - another delay was reported in yesterdays local rag - Wolverhampton will be having wireless trams again, but with battery power this time.

[Steven]

Conduit has proper continuous conductor rails under the centre of the tracks, accessed through a narrow slot by a special device under the tram which bends around to touch the hidden power rail. They are (putting a highway engineer maintenance hat on) a considerable maintenance nuisance, requiring drainage for rainwater, periodic clearance of mud and leaves, liable to collapse from heavy road traffic, short circuits from thin metal objects which happen to fall through the slot (coins, tinfoil), etc.

London just had them in the central area so the streets "looked nice", and likewise the trams in Washington DC used them.

Here's a site that describes the London conduit system

https://dewi.ca/trains/conduit/ploughs.html

The London system was by far the best because the system allowed for a very rapid switch between conduit and overhead operation. This was essential as the system expanded and the cost of conduit track became a real burden, also LCC cars ran into Croydon and other towns that had separately owned systema.

Thank you both - very interesting!

[WHBM]

The London system was by far the best because the system allowed for a very rapid switch between conduit and overhead operation. This was essential as the system expanded and the cost of conduit track became a real burden, also LCC cars ran into Croydon and other towns that had separately owned systema.

It wasn't particularly The Best because the changeover points were notably labour intensive. Each was fully staffed by two or three labourers, and an inspector in charge, during all operating hours. They were necessarily right in the middle of the road, the two tracks splayed out around them. At the start and end of the day there would need to be a delivery, and later collection, of the float of spare "plough" collectors, which are each quite hefty pieces of kit. If there was any disorganisation of the service which led to trams in one direction but not the other being diverted by an alternative route, stuck downroute behind a breakdown, or even in the build up from the depot direction to peak service, they could either run out of these collectors, or have too many for the parking arrangement for them.