Anyone for Trams?

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KeithW
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

Post by KeithW »

FleetlinePhil wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:23 I'm not sure there were many places in the UK where physical constraints were the reason - I think it was more down to reducing costs. I recall reading that the tramway company was responsible for maintaining the roadway between the tracks and a certain distance either side, so this area would be reduced slightly with a narrower gauge. Some areas had company-operated trams throughout their lifetime, others were operated by the local council but even many of these had originally been built privately.
Narrow gauge on trams tended to be used for the same reason as on trains.

The tram tracks take up less of the roadway, allow tighter curves and as trams tend to run at lower speed high speed instability is rarely a problem. I think a major problem with re-introducing trams is likely to be noise. On tight turns steel wheels on steel rails do tend to make a lot of noise, a secondary issue is the relatively low level of friction between steel wheel and steel rail which limits rates of acceleration and braking. The noise issue is why some Paris Metro lines run on rubber tyres. The Quebec Metro uses rubber tyred vehicles only. Advice such as 'get good double glazing' is all very well but does not help on a warm humid night when you need to open the windows to sleep


I prefer a modern version of the trolley bus with a pantograph to pick up power and lithium ion batteries to allow it to cross dead spots and manoeuvre round collisions and incidents that would block traditional trams. Out of town you could run it as a guided busway such as the Cambridge system. The construction cost and disruption would also be greatly reduced.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Interesting in that context that all recently introduced tram systems in Britain have been at railway standard gauge of 1435mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in).
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 16:22 Interesting in that context that all recently introduced tram systems in Britain have been at railway standard gauge of 1435mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in).
Some of them (including the first one radiating from Manchester) use converted heavy rail lines so there wasn't really an option.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Birmingham used a 3 foot 6 inch gauge for it's trams, which probably made them the biggest user of narrow gauge tram tracks.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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RichardA626 wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 22:44 Birmingham used a 3 foot 6 inch gauge for it's trams, which probably made them the biggest user of narrow gauge tram tracks.
Yes, Birmingham had a fleet of 843 narrow gauge trams running on a network of some 80 miles. The connected Black Country lines also ran on 3ft 6in gauge, as did the Kidderminster and Stourport Tramway. I think there were plans to link Kidderminster to the main Black Country network but it never materialised.

Coventry trams also ran on 3ft 6in gauge as did Warwick and Leamington. Whether this was to allow for a subsequent connection I don't know. Certainly some early tramway companies had very grand ideas which never came to fruition.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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PhilC wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 17:02
RichardA626 wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 22:44 Birmingham used a 3 foot 6 inch gauge for it's trams, which probably made them the biggest user of narrow gauge tram tracks.
Yes, Birmingham had a fleet of 843 narrow gauge trams running on a network of some 80 miles. The connected Black Country lines also ran on 3ft 6in gauge, as did the Kidderminster and Stourport Tramway. I think there were plans to link Kidderminster to the main Black Country network but it never materialised.

Coventry trams also ran on 3ft 6in gauge as did Warwick and Leamington. Whether this was to allow for a subsequent connection I don't know. Certainly some early tramway companies had very grand ideas which never came to fruition.
My Dad reckons the First World War stymied the development of many tram systems, & the Second World War did the same for trolleybuses.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

Post by Octaviadriver »

RichardA626 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 21:35 My Dad reckons the First World War stymied the development of many tram systems, & the Second World War did the same for trolleybuses.
Although most tramway systems in the UK were in decline by the outbreak of WWII, some received a reprieve from further closures but some, such as Bristol and Coventry, came to an earlier end due to damage by the Luftwaffe. Trams and trolleybuses were easier to keep running during WWII as electricity was relatively easy to produce using coal, but petrol and diesel for buses was in short supply.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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The trams in County Durham are really really old. Quite slow and spend ages stopped at each stop. They are always packed too.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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To me, trams make sense if they've got dedicated corridors rather than lots of on-street running where they're effectively buses that can't steer around obstacles.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:10 To me, trams make sense if they've got dedicated corridors rather than lots of on-street running where they're effectively buses that can't steer around obstacles.
That's effectively light rail.
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Ruperts Trooper wrote:
rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:10 To me, trams make sense if they've got dedicated corridors rather than lots of on-street running where they're effectively buses that can't steer around obstacles.
That's effectively light rail.
Not really. Light rail is like the Metro. But the Metro can’t do street running, trams can where needed.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Mark Hewitt wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:05 The trams in County Durham are really really old. Quite slow and spend ages stopped at each stop. They are always packed too.
By any chance the ones at Beamish DH9? :D
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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exiled wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:37
Mark Hewitt wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:05 The trams in County Durham are really really old. Quite slow and spend ages stopped at each stop. They are always packed too.
By any chance the ones at Beamish DH9? :D
The same! :). We get left with the old rubbish :p
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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New SI published on Friday: SI 2019/882 - The Midland Metro (Birmingham City Centre Extension, etc.) (Edgbaston Extension Land Acquisition) Order 2019

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019 ... tents/made
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Anyone experienced the tram system in Antwerp, a city about the same size as Newcastle? It was quite interesting as I caught one in the suburbs, where it used the streets, then when it entered the city centre, went underground.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Glenn A wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 13:15 Anyone experienced the tram system in Antwerp, a city about the same size as Newcastle? It was quite interesting as I caught one in the suburbs, where it used the streets, then when it entered the city centre, went underground.
Quite a few cities in Europe intended to develop their tramways into Metro lines by putting the trams in tunnel, but not many have gone the whole hog with it due to the enormous expense. In Brussels they still operate a "Pre-metro" using trams but this has been in operation for so long, I doubt it will ever become a full Metro line. The stations in the tunnels are long enough for metro trains of several cars, and the platforms are high level with a dropped section where the trams stop. This map shows the Premetro clearly in pink with the normal tramway routes in red. There is also a shorter Premetro tunnel that takes belt line routes 7 and 25.

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/be/brux/brussels-map.htm

On the other hand, Stuttgart have spent what must have been nearly equal to the US defense budget converting their trams from metre to standard gauge, and then converting most of it to Stadbahn. One could call this Pre-metro as it mostly uses tramcars, except there are no plans for such lines to become Metro, they will remain as they are, mostly segregated with some on-street and some tunnelling, but some much longer units very close to Metro rolling stock are now in use. Full Metro normally is considered as total segregation and no street running, even if off the carriageway, so in city centres all underground or elevated.

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/de/s/stuttgart.htm

Amsterdam has a large tramway network that has been extended since it was much diminished in the 1950s. There is also a Metro network but much controversy surrounded some of the route developments such that one new line to Ijburg was finally built as a tramline and a new tunnel, under Centrall Station abandoned. Apart from London, where money seems no object, most European cities appear to have drawn their horns in on Metro developments due to the huge costs. In Nuremburg for instance, whilst one of the Metro lines goes through the city centre whereas the trams don't, there are now plans to put the trams back into the centre, and extend routes out further.

Our own Manchester Metrolink is probably closest to a Stadtbahn, but calling it a Metro would be a bit ambitious !
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 16:06 I prefer a modern version of the trolley bus with a pantograph to pick up power and lithium ion batteries to allow it to cross dead spots and manoeuvre round collisions and incidents that would block traditional trams. Out of town you could run it as a guided busway such as the Cambridge system. The construction cost and disruption would also be greatly reduced.
You can't have a pantograph with trolleybuses because, in the absence of rails, there has to be a second wire to complete the electrical circuit. Modern trolleybuses of the kind you describe (with batteries to allow for uninterrupted travel through gaps in the overhead) are, however, returning to Prague: https://youtu.be/TJQnKtaQcac
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vlad
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

Post by vlad »

Glenn A wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 13:15 Anyone experienced the tram system in Antwerp, a city about the same size as Newcastle? It was quite interesting as I caught one in the suburbs, where it used the streets, then when it entered the city centre, went underground.
I've used the one in Brussels, which (as fras has said) has a similar system.

Volgograd is another interesting one. One of the tram lines is the so-called Express Tram, which runs underground in the centre of town before reappearing above ground to the north (where it slows down a bit). As the underground stations have island platforms and Russian trams only have the doors on the right (as ordinarily you'd get on and off at the kerb rather than the middle of the road), the trams are left-hand running through the tunnels.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

Post by fras »

Viator wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 18:00
KeithW wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 16:06 I prefer a modern version of the trolley bus with a pantograph to pick up power and lithium ion batteries to allow it to cross dead spots and manoeuvre round collisions and incidents that would block traditional trams. Out of town you could run it as a guided busway such as the Cambridge system. The construction cost and disruption would also be greatly reduced.
You can't have a pantograph with trolleybuses because, in the absence of rails, there has to be a second wire to complete the electrical circuit. Modern trolleybuses of the kind you describe (with batteries to allow for uninterrupted travel through gaps in the overhead) are, however, returning to Prague: https://youtu.be/TJQnKtaQcac
The Rome system, built in 2003/4 and operational 2005 is similar. Only the route outside the city wall is wired, inside the walls it runs on battery to Termini Station. The depot is off the route and not wired. There was much criticism of the expense when it was built. No doubt with the present environment Zeitgeist people will be more accepting of electric buses despite their higher cost. However, so far, a proposed second route in Rome has not yet been built.
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Re: Anyone for Trams?

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Viator wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 18:00 Modern trolleybuses of the kind you describe (with batteries to allow for uninterrupted travel through gaps in the overhead) are, however, returning to Prague: https://youtu.be/TJQnKtaQcac
Trolleybus (singular) at present. I did put a post on the trolleybus thread after I'd been on the route in March. To recap, currently ( :D pun vaguely intended) just one vehicle is operating an hourly service, just in case that is not obvious from the the YouTube clip, with thirty minutes out of each hour spent recharging at Palmovka.
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