Transport for London Road Network

Found anything interesting on "The Roader's Digest" - the SABRE Wiki? Talk about articles in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Viator
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 19:06
Location: Llan-giwg

Transport for London Road Network

Post by Viator » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:28

I''m currently engaged in some preparatory wikiwork concerning English highway authorities. Is this map of the TfL Road Network the most up-to-date version, as far as anyone knows?

P.S. I notice that the London boroughs -- although they are highway authorities, and English -- are not currently included in https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... uthorities. Is there any reason why I shouldn't add them to this category?

WHBM
Member
Posts: 7199
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by WHBM » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:56

That is the one which I use, and appears to be the most up to date. Recent removals (such as Shorter Street in Tower Hamlets, by the Tower of London) show the current position. The network doesn't change much, this is the most recent alteration I can think of.

Does the A13 DBFO qualify as part of the network ? It is always separately identified. Was it ever transferred from the DfT ? Note the Limehouse Link, part of the same DBFO, is however not part of the network due to a legal nicety about its initial part-funding by Canary Wharf, which if it was made part of the network they would be entitled to ask for their contribution back. Operationally, however, it is all regarded as one.

What is the position regarding the Cycle Super Highways ? They were paid for by TfL, including the new sections through the Royal Parks where the roads were previously not part of the network.
Last edited by WHBM on Mon Apr 09, 2018 13:04, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
ChrisH
Member
Posts: 3657
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:29

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by ChrisH » Mon Apr 09, 2018 13:01

There's a slightly simpler map here, but the extent of the TLRN hasn't changed much recently.

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 7639
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by c2R » Mon Apr 09, 2018 13:53

Viator wrote:I''m currently engaged in some preparatory wikiwork concerning English highway authorities. Is this map of the TfL Road Network the most up-to-date version, as far as anyone knows?

P.S. I notice that the London boroughs -- although they are highway authorities, and English -- are not currently included in https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... uthorities. Is there any reason why I shouldn't add them to this category?

Interesting - they're in Category:London Highway Authorities, but that sits alongside English Highway Authorities not under it.

I would have thought it should either sit under it, or the pages should be included in both.
Are you feeling bored? Wiki: Things to do - Join the Great C Road Hunt

User avatar
Chris5156
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by Chris5156 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 14:50

WHBM wrote:Does the A13 DBFO qualify as part of the network ? It is always separately identified. Was it ever transferred from the DfT ?
I don't categorically know the answer to that, but I'm surprised that there's any question it wasn't transferred. TfL certainly appear to have powers over the speed limit on the road and were the authority responsible for (and taking credit for) the raising of the limit to 50 just west of the North Circular when average speed cameras went in. I've always taken that as de facto evidence that they are the authority to which the DBFO is answerable.
What is the position regarding the Cycle Super Highways ? They were paid for by TfL, including the new sections through the Royal Parks where the roads were previously not part of the network.
I believe some Cycle Superhighways were installed at TfL expense on roads still operated by other authorities. (Possibly TfL make an ongoing maintenance contribution but I don't know.) You may remember that there was a situation a year or two ago when Westminster were all set to veto them altogether on roads they maintain. TfL then pointed out that it had the power to unilaterally adopt any road in Greater London, so if Westminster failed to agree, the roads would just be transferred to the GLA. I believe Westminster then had another think about it and decided to cooperate.

In the Royal Parks the cycle routes are sent along paths the Royal Parks considered suitable and that involved some considerable compromise by TfL - the route through Hyde Park is literally two sides of a triangle.

WHBM
Member
Posts: 7199
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by WHBM » Mon Apr 09, 2018 15:12

Chris5156 wrote:I don't categorically know the answer to that, but I'm surprised that there's any question it wasn't transferred. TfL certainly appear to have powers over the speed limit on the road and were the authority responsible for (and taking credit for) the raising of the limit to 50 just west of the North Circular when average speed cameras went in. I've always taken that as de facto evidence that they are the authority to which the DBFO is answerable.
I don't know either. My question is because the initial DBFO was between the DfT and RMS (A13) Ltd. Part is inside London and part outside. If the section inside London was transferred the original contract would need to be renegotiated into two parts, with separate clients, which as far as I am aware has not happened. The status of the Limehouse Link in the DBFO has always made renegotiation a tricky subject.

The motorways inside London were not transferred.

User avatar
Viator
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 19:06
Location: Llan-giwg

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by Viator » Mon Apr 09, 2018 22:24

Thank you for the replies. May I also ask: would I be right in thinking that there are no trunk roads inside the Greater London Authority / Transport for London area? (The current SABRE wiki article on trunk roads has nothing to say about this -- except insofar as it does not mention TfL.)

From the SABRE Wiki: Trunk road :
... Read More

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 7639
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by c2R » Mon Apr 09, 2018 22:49

Viator wrote:Thank you for the replies. May I also ask: would I be right in thinking that there are no trunk roads inside the Greater London Authority / Transport for London area? (The current SABRE wiki article on trunk roads has nothing to say about this -- except insofar as it does not mention TfL.)
No, motorways are trunk and they exist in the GLA area. But I believe that all Class I routes that were trunk within the GLA area were transferred to TfL.
Are you feeling bored? Wiki: Things to do - Join the Great C Road Hunt

From the SABRE Wiki: Trunk road :
... Read More

User avatar
ChrisH
Member
Posts: 3657
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:29

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by ChrisH » Tue Apr 10, 2018 07:18

WHBM wrote:
Chris5156 wrote:I don't categorically know the answer to that, but I'm surprised that there's any question it wasn't transferred. TfL certainly appear to have powers over the speed limit on the road and were the authority responsible for (and taking credit for) the raising of the limit to 50 just west of the North Circular when average speed cameras went in. I've always taken that as de facto evidence that they are the authority to which the DBFO is answerable.
I don't know either. My question is because the initial DBFO was between the DfT and RMS (A13) Ltd. Part is inside London and part outside. If the section inside London was transferred the original contract would need to be renegotiated into two parts, with separate clients, which as far as I am aware has not happened. The status of the Limehouse Link in the DBFO has always made renegotiation a tricky subject.

The motorways inside London were not transferred.
RMS are the DBFO contractor on behalf of TfL. The DfT don't have any connection to the London A13 any more.

User avatar
Viator
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 19:06
Location: Llan-giwg

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by Viator » Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:11

c2R wrote:
Viator wrote:I notice that the London boroughs -- although they are highway authorities, and English -- are not currently included in https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... uthorities. Is there any reason why I shouldn't add them to this category?
Interesting - they're in Category:London Highway Authorities, but that sits alongside English Highway Authorities not under it.

I would have thought it should either sit under it, or the pages should be included in both.
Agreed; am now gradually including links to both categories in the London borough pages as I work through them. (They're in need of a "wash and brush up" in any case, since the articles' texts -- as opposed to the page structures -- don't seem to have received very much attention in the last four years!)

User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 7639
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by c2R » Tue Apr 10, 2018 13:17

Viator wrote:
c2R wrote:
Viator wrote:I notice that the London boroughs -- although they are highway authorities, and English -- are not currently included in https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... uthorities. Is there any reason why I shouldn't add them to this category?
Interesting - they're in Category:London Highway Authorities, but that sits alongside English Highway Authorities not under it.

I would have thought it should either sit under it, or the pages should be included in both.
Agreed; am now gradually including links to both categories in the London borough pages as I work through them. (They're in need of a "wash and brush up" in any case, since the articles' texts -- as opposed to the page structures -- don't seem to have received very much attention in the last four years!)
Agreed, that makes sense.
Are you feeling bored? Wiki: Things to do - Join the Great C Road Hunt

User avatar
M4Simon
Member
Posts: 9137
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2002 22:35
Location: WGC, Herts
Contact:

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by M4Simon » Tue Apr 10, 2018 23:18

Chris5156 wrote:
WHBM wrote:Does the A13 DBFO qualify as part of the network ? It is always separately identified. Was it ever transferred from the DfT ?
I don't categorically know the answer to that, but I'm surprised that there's any question it wasn't transferred. TfL certainly appear to have powers over the speed limit on the road and were the authority responsible for (and taking credit for) the raising of the limit to 50 just west of the North Circular when average speed cameras went in. I've always taken that as de facto evidence that they are the authority to which the DBFO is answerable.
What is the position regarding the Cycle Super Highways ? They were paid for by TfL, including the new sections through the Royal Parks where the roads were previously not part of the network.
I believe some Cycle Superhighways were installed at TfL expense on roads still operated by other authorities. (Possibly TfL make an ongoing maintenance contribution but I don't know.) You may remember that there was a situation a year or two ago when Westminster were all set to veto them altogether on roads they maintain. TfL then pointed out that it had the power to unilaterally adopt any road in Greater London, so if Westminster failed to agree, the roads would just be transferred to the GLA. I believe Westminster then had another think about it and decided to cooperate.

In the Royal Parks the cycle routes are sent along paths the Royal Parks considered suitable and that involved some considerable compromise by TfL - the route through Hyde Park is literally two sides of a triangle.
Cycle superhighways across land that is not public highway are built under licence from the landowner and are built at TfL's expense. I have seen such a licence.

I would imagine that a cycle superhighway built on another highway authority's road would be built under a Section 8 agreement.

Things can be further complicated by TfL being the traffic authority where a borough is the highway authority. On some boundaries between boroughs, one side of the road is in one borough, the other side in the other, but one borough is the highway authority for both sides of the carriageway and the other borough is highway authority for the footway, and TfL is the traffic authority, i.e the red route extends onto the road.
Try getting anything done in these circumstances!

WHBM
Member
Posts: 7199
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by WHBM » Wed Apr 11, 2018 05:48

Cycle superhighways across land that is not public highway are built under licence from the landowner and are built at TfL's expense. I have seen such a licence.
However, are they part of TfL's highway network, which was the original question. Maybe a separate sub-category is needed for Cycle Super Highways.
one borough is the highway authority for both sides of the carriageway and the other borough is highway authority for the footway, and TfL is the traffic authority, i.e the red route extends onto the road.
I didn't think there were any Red Routes which were not TfL Network.

User avatar
M4Simon
Member
Posts: 9137
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2002 22:35
Location: WGC, Herts
Contact:

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by M4Simon » Wed Apr 11, 2018 07:49

WHBM wrote:
Cycle superhighways across land that is not public highway are built under licence from the landowner and are built at TfL's expense. I have seen such a licence.
However, are they part of TfL's highway network, which was the original question. Maybe a separate sub-category is needed for Cycle Super Highways.
The section I am thinking of is not public highway and is not part of TLRN. TfL has a licence to sign/add road markings to route a cycle superhighway through this private road. It is part of TfL's superhighway network, but only in the sense that the network is a collection of signed cycle routes.
one borough is the highway authority for both sides of the carriageway and the other borough is highway authority for the footway, and TfL is the traffic authority, i.e the red route extends onto the road.
I didn't think there were any Red Routes which were not TfL Network.
The section of road I am thinking of is about 150m long and is a reasonably important approach to a major junction on TLRN. I am aware of a number of legal agreements relating to this length of road, which is why I won't be telling you where it is! It definitely isn't TfL highway, but it is part of the red route and they are traffic authority for the section.

User avatar
Chris5156
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:10

WHBM wrote:
one borough is the highway authority for both sides of the carriageway and the other borough is highway authority for the footway, and TfL is the traffic authority, i.e the red route extends onto the road.
I didn't think there were any Red Routes which were not TfL Network.
Unless I have the wrong end of the stick, I think there are lots of them - possibly thousands - though none are very significant. Any side turning off a red route is also a red route for a short distance, but only the main road will be under TfL control. The red route restrictions continue onto local authority roads in thousands of places. Here's one in LB Richmond just off the South Circular. That is, admittedly, a technicality, but they are still sections of red route on local authority roads.

WHBM
Member
Posts: 7199
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by WHBM » Wed Apr 11, 2018 13:32

Chris5156 wrote:Any side turning off a red route is also a red route for a short distance, but only the main road will be under TfL control. The red route restrictions continue onto local authority roads in thousands of places.
I did always thing that the Red Route markings coincided with the defined extent of TfL responsibility around the corner radii - looking at the example, the surfacing changes at the markings end, and the LA parking bay starts. But maybe not.

User avatar
Chris5156
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by Chris5156 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:36

WHBM wrote:
Chris5156 wrote:Any side turning off a red route is also a red route for a short distance, but only the main road will be under TfL control. The red route restrictions continue onto local authority roads in thousands of places.
I did always thing that the Red Route markings coincided with the defined extent of TfL responsibility around the corner radii - looking at the example, the surfacing changes at the markings end, and the LA parking bay starts. But maybe not.
In that specific example, the single red line continues on the right up to the parked white van, while the marked parking bays on the left are part of the red route and have a corresponding sign. The change in the surface comes before that point, which suggests to me the bays and the single red line are on LB Richmond's part of the road. In other places you can often see the red route markings overlap with lighting columns and signage which is clearly maintained and operated by the borough and not by TfL.

Again, I'm not claiming these are full red routes managed by boroughs, but they are all examples (assuming I'm right) of red routes on borough maintained roads, where as Simon says it seems likely that the highway authority is the borough but the traffic authority, for just that short length, is TfL, and there's an overlap of responsibility.

WHBM
Member
Posts: 7199
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: Transport for London Road Network

Post by WHBM » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:37

Oh well

Just to round out, here's the self-appointed Red Route put up by the Excel Centre all round their extensive premises.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5085784 ... 312!8i6656

Post Reply