A59 mystery

Found anything interesting on "The Roader's Digest" - the SABRE Wiki? Talk about articles in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

roadphotos
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 19:28

A59 mystery

Post by roadphotos » Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:08

Does the A59 exist west of the River Mersey ?. Most maps and atlases are now showing this to be the case. Google Maps and the latest OS Landranger Map of the area seem to be the latest to show the A59 on the Birkenhead side of the River Mersey. I don't think that there are any signs on the ground that confirm this. The SABRE Wiki still says that the A59 only exists on the Liverpool side of the River Mersey but as more maps and atlases are now showing the A59 starting at the M53 at Wallasey I can't be sure which is correct. This must surely be one of the biggest mystery's concerning any 'A Road' in Britain. Also maps that used to show the section of road from the M53 (Junction 1) at Wallasey to the tunnel under the River Mersey as an unclassified road are now showing it as part of the A59 so they must have got there information from somewhere or they wouldn't have changed it. I just thought I'd ask to see if anyone knows for sure

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13203
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Chris Bertram » Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:42

roadphotos wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:08
Does the A59 exist west of the River Mersey ?. Most maps and atlases are now showing this to be the case. Google Maps and the latest OS Landranger Map of the area seem to be the latest to show the A59 on the Birkenhead side of the River Mersey. I don't think that there are any signs on the ground that confirm this. The SABRE Wiki still says that the A59 only exists on the Liverpool side of the River Mersey but as more maps and atlases are now showing the A59 starting at the M53 at Wallasey I can't be sure which is correct. This must surely be one of the biggest mystery's concerning any 'A Road' in Britain. Also maps that used to show the section of road from the M53 (Junction 1) at Wallasey to the tunnel under the River Mersey as an unclassified road are now showing it as part of the A59 so they must have got there information from somewhere or they wouldn't have changed it. I just thought I'd ask to see if anyone knows for sure
The corresponding question is whether A41 passes through the Kingsway tunnel to end in Liverpool. Do we have a definitive answer to that?
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
ForestChav
SABRE Developer
Posts: 9849
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 00:00
Location: Nottingham (Bronx of the Midlands)
Contact:

Re: A59 mystery

Post by ForestChav » Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:56

I don't think either have been officially answered, and just randomly appeared on some maps because it was presumably better than showing them as "tunnel".
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

User avatar
JohnnyMo
Member
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 13:56
Location: Letchworth, Herts, England

Re: A59 mystery

Post by JohnnyMo » Sat Feb 29, 2020 17:37

Chris Bertram wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:42
roadphotos wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:08
Does the A59 exist west of the River Mersey ?. ...
The corresponding question is whether A41 passes through the Kingsway tunnel to end in Liverpool. Do we have a definitive answer to that?
Yes & yes
Johnny Mo

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31273
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Bryn666 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 17:00

JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 17:37
Chris Bertram wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:42
roadphotos wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:08
Does the A59 exist west of the River Mersey ?. ...
The corresponding question is whether A41 passes through the Kingsway tunnel to end in Liverpool. Do we have a definitive answer to that?
Yes & yes
The definitive answer is the National Street Gazeteer, it is highly probable that this page refers to that.

Presumably Merseytravel applied to the DfT to have the unclassified roads numbered as A59 and A41 to aid navigation. Interestingly I have a 1970 road atlas that shows the Kingsway Tunnel as an extension of the M53...
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

M5Lenzar
Former Member
Posts: 4477
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 14:39

Re: A59 mystery

Post by M5Lenzar » Tue Mar 03, 2020 08:04

JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 17:37
Chris Bertram wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:42
roadphotos wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 15:08
Does the A59 exist west of the River Mersey ?. ...
The corresponding question is whether A41 passes through the Kingsway tunnel to end in Liverpool. Do we have a definitive answer to that?
Yes & yes
I'm not sure I trust this page's accuracy. It says there's a toll on the M25 Dartford Crossing. :bang:

User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31273
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:07

M5Lenzar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 08:04
JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 17:37
Chris Bertram wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 16:42
The corresponding question is whether A41 passes through the Kingsway tunnel to end in Liverpool. Do we have a definitive answer to that?
Yes & yes
I'm not sure I trust this page's accuracy. It says there's a toll on the M25 Dartford Crossing. :bang:
To the layman the Dartford Crossing is on the M25. Only nerds actually care that it is really the A282.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
rhyds
Member
Posts: 11939
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 15:51
Location: Beautiful North Wales

Re: A59 mystery

Post by rhyds » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:24

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:07
M5Lenzar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 08:04
JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 17:37


Yes & yes
I'm not sure I trust this page's accuracy. It says there's a toll on the M25 Dartford Crossing. :bang:
To the layman the Dartford Crossing is on the M25. Only nerds actually care that it is really the A282.
However as this discussion is definitely at the "nerd" end of the spectrum its a valid point to raise.
Built for comfort, not speed.

User avatar
nowster
Treasurer
Posts: 14051
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 16:06
Location: Manchester

Re: A59 mystery

Post by nowster » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:40

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:07
To the layman the Dartford Crossing is on the M25. Only nerds actually care that it is really the A282.
Who are you, and what have you done with Bryn? :twisted:

Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: B3272/A325/A331

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Micro The Maniac » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:00

M5Lenzar wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 08:04
I'm not sure I trust this page's accuracy. It says there's a toll on the M25 Dartford Crossing. :bang:
To be fair, it does also say A282 Trunk road

Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: B3272/A325/A331

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Micro The Maniac » Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:04

Out of curiosity, I've emailed Merseytravel, to ask the question. The "from the horses mouth" answer is as follows:
. I have checked with our tunnel police and the answer is that the tunnel roads are private roads, owned and operated by Merseytravel – they are not part of the public highway. As they do not form part of the national network of roads they are not repairable at public expense.

The Queensway tunnel starts at the roundabout at the Old Haymarket in Liverpool and then links into the A41 once you have exited the toll booths and the Kingsway Tunnel starts from the end of the M53 just past the Bidston junction and then links into the A59 at Scotland Road in Liverpool.
So, it is clear, and I was wrong! The A59 does not start on The Wirral, and the A41 does not start in Liverpool.

User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 17496
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Steven » Tue Sep 01, 2020 14:25

Micro The Maniac wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:04
Out of curiosity, I've emailed Merseytravel, to ask the question. The "from the horses mouth" answer is as follows:
. I have checked with our tunnel police and the answer is that the tunnel roads are private roads, owned and operated by Merseytravel – they are not part of the public highway. As they do not form part of the national network of roads they are not repairable at public expense.

The Queensway tunnel starts at the roundabout at the Old Haymarket in Liverpool and then links into the A41 once you have exited the toll booths and the Kingsway Tunnel starts from the end of the M53 just past the Bidston junction and then links into the A59 at Scotland Road in Liverpool.
So, it is clear, and I was wrong! The A59 does not start on The Wirral, and the A41 does not start in Liverpool.
To be fair, they're not quite answering that question, but a very similar one.

They say that the tunnels are private roads (which they are) and hence not repairable at public expense (which is the definition of a private road...)

They're then telling you which roads they connect to at either end, which is again true - in the case of the Kingsway Tunnel the public highway ends at the "no chopsticks" for the M53.

Given that the entire original point of classification was around maintenance, by the 1922 definition, the two tunnels cannot be classified for maintenance purposes. However, that's not the same as the modern idea of classification for navigation. There are a number of OS scales (such as Landrangers, Explorers and VectorMap District) that clearly show Kingsway as A59 and Queensway as A41 - and they're supposed to know these days.

As an aside, the National Street Gazetteer is unhelpful on this question.
Steven

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!


User avatar
Bryn666
Member
Posts: 31273
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 16:23

Then as I said elsewhere - if it isn't in the NSG it isn't correct.

OS wanted to show these roads as important - you can't do that if they're yellow. Why they added the labels is presumably a copyright trap. It doesn't harm anyone if a map says they're the A59 and A41 but it's not correct so another map maker would be in trouble copying it.
Bryn
Traffic/Road Safety Dogsbody and General Grumpy Now-a-Thirtysomething Man
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Alderpoint » Tue Sep 01, 2020 16:29

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 16:23
OS wanted to show these roads as important - you can't do that if they're yellow. Why they added the labels is presumably a copyright trap. It doesn't harm anyone if a map says they're the A59 and A41 but it's not correct so another map maker would be in trouble copying it.
If I was a mapmaker I'd want to make my map reflect what is visible on the ground - the point of a map is to navigate by. Pretty trivial defence in case of a copyright issue....
Let it snow.

User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 17496
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Steven » Tue Sep 01, 2020 17:52

Bryn666 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 16:23
Then as I said elsewhere - if it isn't in the NSG it isn't correct.
The copy of the NSG that I have found doesn't have classification information - just street names, maintaining body, etc
OS wanted to show these roads as important - you can't do that if they're yellow. Why they added the labels is presumably a copyright trap. It doesn't harm anyone if a map says they're the A59 and A41 but it's not correct so another map maker would be in trouble copying it.
If it was a copyright trap you would not expect it to be consistent across different map series.
Steven

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!


User avatar
jgharston
Member
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:06
Location: Sheffield/Whitby

Re: A59 mystery

Post by jgharston » Tue Sep 01, 2020 20:00

The "it's a private road, so it's not an A road" argument means there's a gap in the A57 at the Dunham toll bridge. I think it's obvious that the A57 crosses the Trent regardless of the ownership of the thoroughfare. Similar arguments for the Tyne tunnels, the Skye Bridge, the Forth Bridge, the Humber Bridge, etc.

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13203
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Chris Bertram » Tue Sep 01, 2020 20:56

On the very early MOT maps showing the road numbers, there were gaps for toll roads and other non-public roads at the time - the Royal Military Road near Rye, for example, caused a gap in A259, despite the road being open to the public. The next edition showed the gap closed, so it must have been established that the number existed for routing purposes regardless of ownership. It's therefore possible that the tunnels are indeed A41 and A59 on this basis, and I'd tend to trust the OS to get this right.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Alderpoint » Wed Sep 02, 2020 08:55

jgharston wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 20:00
The "it's a private road, so it's not an A road" argument means there's a gap in the A57 at the Dunham toll bridge. I think it's obvious that the A57 crosses the Trent regardless of the ownership of the thoroughfare. Similar arguments for the Tyne tunnels, the Skye Bridge, the Forth Bridge, the Humber Bridge, etc.
And the M6(T).
Let it snow.

User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 17496
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A59 mystery

Post by Steven » Wed Sep 02, 2020 09:05

Alderpoint wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 08:55
jgharston wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 20:00
The "it's a private road, so it's not an A road" argument means there's a gap in the A57 at the Dunham toll bridge. I think it's obvious that the A57 crosses the Trent regardless of the ownership of the thoroughfare. Similar arguments for the Tyne tunnels, the Skye Bridge, the Forth Bridge, the Humber Bridge, etc.
And the M6(T).
The M6 Toll isn't a private road. It's a public road, just built and maintained by Midland Expressway in contract to Highways England in the same way as many other roads via DBFO - it's just that it's paid for via the tolls rather than some form of shadow toll arrangement.
Steven

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!


User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 9963
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: A59 mystery

Post by c2R » Wed Sep 02, 2020 09:10

..while the Skye Bridge is of course a Special Road.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps

Post Reply