A533 needs updating

Found anything interesting on "The Roader's Digest" - the SABRE Wiki? Talk about articles in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
roadphotos
Member
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 19:28

A533 needs updating

Post by roadphotos »

I think the A533 needs updating on the Wiki. I believe that it has changed it's route at Runcorn and now goes over the Mersey Gateway Bridge. The Wiki still says that the A533 is the number of the road going over the old bridge which I believe is no longer the case
User avatar
frediculous_biggs
SABRE Developer
Posts: 2504
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:25
Location: Sandy

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by frediculous_biggs »

roadphotos wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 01:52 I think the A533 needs updating on the Wiki. I believe that it has changed it's route at Runcorn and now goes over the Mersey Gateway Bridge. The Wiki still says that the A533 is the number of the road going over the old bridge which I believe is no longer the case
The wiki can be edited by any SABRE member. Why not edit the page yourself? If you have any problems, contact the Wiki admins, who will be happy to help you
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17456
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Truvelo »

I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26151
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Owain »

Truvelo wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46 I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5692
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by RichardA35 »

Owain wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42
Truvelo wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46 I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26151
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Owain »

RichardA35 wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:48
Owain wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42
Truvelo wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 13:46 I've edited the article reflecting the opening of the new bridge.
Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing
If I'd known that I could pay online - as I've done for the Dublin M50 and the Dartford Crossing - I would have driven over the bridge!

All I saw as I approached was a sign telling me that there was a toll; it might have had more details on it, but I could hardly stop the car to read everything on the sign, so I just took the exit to avoid embarrassment.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:09
RichardA35 wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:48
Owain wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 09:42

Good man! :thumbsup: I was going to have a crack at it myself, but was too busy yesterday...

I was going to drive over the new bridge after getting off a ferry in Birkenhead some time ago, but I didn't realise there was a toll on it and I didn't have any cash so I couldn't!
I think we have been here before (several times) with the technologically challenged or stubborn :D how-to-pay-for-a-crossing
If I'd known that I could pay online - as I've done for the Dublin M50 and the Dartford Crossing - I would have driven over the bridge!

All I saw as I approached was a sign telling me that there was a toll; it might have had more details on it, but I could hardly stop the car to read everything on the sign, so I just took the exit to avoid embarrassment.
The signs are shocking in this regard, but they have since changed to have the Congestion Charge symbol which you're supposed to be able translate into meaning "pay online".

The bridge is actually signed a congestion charge zone now.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17456
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Truvelo »

It would make sense to introduce a standardised toll sign which is used throughout the country that is instantly recognisable. The congestion charge symbol would be one such idea. In the US they have a yellow tab on ADS signs with "last exit before toll" which is used nationwide.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

Truvelo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 13:42 It would make sense to introduce a standardised toll sign which is used throughout the country that is instantly recognisable. The congestion charge symbol would be one such idea. In the US they have a yellow tab on ADS signs with "last exit before toll" which is used nationwide.
I agree, the C symbol should be amended in the TSRGD to mean any general toll applies, but that's using common sense...

The Warburton Bridge uses the C symbol following the rebuilding of the burnt down toll booth.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7500
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Big L »

C for Ctoll? I see confusion ahead!
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:23 C for Ctoll? I see confusion ahead!
The general industry term is a road user charge, toll is just a layman term.

If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Alderpoint »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:53 If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
If they introduce a confusing symbol which 75% of the country will hardly ever come across yet *must* comply with, they need to publicise and explain it widely.

When the Dartford Crossing went gate-less the signage was initially appalling - very few signs, tiny and meaningless to those who didn't know what they meant. Now all the VMSs approaching from around 20 miles away are telling users they need to pay a charge.
Let it snow.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

Alderpoint wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:06
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 08:53 If people are confused by a symbol they shouldn't be driving.
If they introduce a confusing symbol which 75% of the country will hardly ever come across yet *must* comply with, they need to publicise and explain it widely.

When the Dartford Crossing went gate-less the signage was initially appalling - very few signs, tiny and meaningless to those who didn't know what they meant. Now all the VMSs approaching from around 20 miles away are telling users they need to pay a charge.
The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.

We need to stop making excuses for ignorance - it isn't a defence in law and it shouldn't be for any driving issue. It's incumbent on YOU (generic) to update your knowledge and retain competence to drive.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:13The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.
I agree that the "C" symbol isn't new; it's been in use in London and Durham since 2002 and it's been, as you say, in the Highway Code and Know Your Traffic Signs for years too. I also agree it's not unreasonable to expect drivers to familiarise themselves with changes to motoring law and road signs.

On the other hand, though, I'd argue that a red circle with a "C" in it is a crap way to tell people that they have to pay to use a road. It's just not a well-conceived sign.

It only exists in that form because it was originally used for "congestion charges", but even then it was pretty obscure. Now apparently it just means a "charge", which means the single letter is standing in for a word that most drivers would never use. So while drivers should take the time to learn the signs, I think there's also a responsibility on the government bodies that design these things to make signs as clear and intuitive as possible, and that plainly hasn't been done here.

I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
User avatar
Johnathan404
Member
Posts: 11478
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 16:54

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Johnathan404 »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43 I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
Yes! I've been calling for this for a while, but my suggestion was a blue circle, as in "you must Pounds". It could then be used on ADS, direction signs and entry points just like the buses only sign.

It still wouldn't explicitly say that it's a toll road, but even most foreign drivers would recognise that this symbol means you'll need money. It could also easily be adopted across Europe with local symbols, although evidently nobody in Europe agrees that it's a good idea otherwise somebody would have tried it.

I even thought that where there are tolls with a simple charging structure, which are rare but have their own merits, you could put the price on the sign. The Dublin Port Tunnel, for example, could just say "you must €3", with "HGVs free" in an exemption plate*.

* - yes you would need to factor in the €10 peak hour charge, but go easy, I'm thinking aloud here.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 09:13The C symbol has been in Know Your Traffic Signs since it was re-written in 2016. If drivers can't be bothered to update their knowledge then they are wilfully incompetent and should not be on the road. It's also been in the Highway Code since about 2004.
I agree that the "C" symbol isn't new; it's been in use in London and Durham since 2002 and it's been, as you say, in the Highway Code and Know Your Traffic Signs for years too. I also agree it's not unreasonable to expect drivers to familiarise themselves with changes to motoring law and road signs.

On the other hand, though, I'd argue that a red circle with a "C" in it is a crap way to tell people that they have to pay to use a road. It's just not a well-conceived sign.

It only exists in that form because it was originally used for "congestion charges", but even then it was pretty obscure. Now apparently it just means a "charge", which means the single letter is standing in for a word that most drivers would never use. So while drivers should take the time to learn the signs, I think there's also a responsibility on the government bodies that design these things to make signs as clear and intuitive as possible, and that plainly hasn't been done here.

I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
That could work - or, we adopt the internationally accepted sign and use it on signs like the Spanish do.

https://static3-sevilla.abc.es/media/an ... 49@abc.jpg

In reality we'll do our own thing because we always do.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 09:47
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 00:43I'd argue a very simple change could be made - keep the red circle but change the "C" for a pound sign.
That could work - or, we adopt the internationally accepted sign and use it on signs like the Spanish do.

https://static3-sevilla.abc.es/media/an ... 49@abc.jpg

In reality we'll do our own thing because we always do.
I'd be equally happy with that. It's just really unfortunate that the "C" has become the de facto sign for a charge or toll.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11156
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by c2R »

The irony being that the international sign includes the word toll in English.... Sigh....
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35717
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 23:30 The irony being that the international sign includes the word toll in English.... Sigh....
The Spanish one does, the French dies not - it says HALTE PÉAGE.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Rallyenavigator
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 14:01

Re: A533 needs updating

Post by Rallyenavigator »

The trouble with a pound sign is that in infers cash is take. As previously stated the Mersey Gateway is pay online only. Incidentally the old SJB (silver jubilee bridge) is scheduled to re-open later this year, one lane in each direction with an entirely remodelled access layout at the Runcorn end
Post Reply