DfT card index of road numbers

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Chris Bertram
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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by Chris Bertram »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 22:21
Alderpoint wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 22:11 For many years we went Warwick to Gloucester via this route at least once a month so got to know it pretty well. From what I remember...

Prior to the Stratford northern bypass being built, the A46 ran from Longbridge roundabout at the bottom end of Warwick bypass (no M40 in those days), through the centre of Stratford and out along the now B439 to Bidford and then to Salford Priors and south of Harvington to join the (then)A435/(now)B4088 just north of Norton and then through the centre of Evesham - until the Evesham bypass was constructed and the A46 went that way.

When the Stratford northern bypass was constructed (mostly along the line of former C-roads), the A46 then took that road to the Alcester Rd (A422?) wast of Stratford, but the road from Stratford to Alcester stayed as the A422. South of Stratford the A46 continued on its previous alignment to Bidford and beyond.
The A46 has never gone through Bidford or the middle of Evesham. Until the late 1980s, it ran as non-primary route along what is now the B4632 through Broadway and Winchcombe.
... and entered Cheltenham via Prestbury. It's a lovely drive with some fantastic views from high up on the escarpment, but totally unsuitable to have a 2-digit A number.
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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by rileyrob »

Thanks for the help with the two Zone 4 roads, I've now sorted those pages out I think.

I've now gone through Zone 6, and apart from A613 (Leeds) I don't think there are any big queries. Hopefully someone will know something about this reserved number though.

Going through the list, it is quite astonishing how some of the termini are very vague (I am at least presuming that 'Manchester' simply meant inside the CB boundary, rather than the city centre, as 9 times out of 10 the MOT maps show the same start point as later maps, if not current ones). While others pinpoint places that are only marked on Explorer maps. There are also curiosities / inconsistencies such as the A6142 being described as Halifax, when the nearby A6139 is in Sowerby Bridge. The vagueness of much of the data means that I have probably missed some changes, but it is hard to identify when I'm not familiar with the areas in question. Generally speaking, if the route in question still passes through the places listed I have presumed the route to be unchanged.

I also think that there are a lot of historic route deviations missing from the Wiki, especially noticeable in Zone 6 where some of the roads are mostly urban and going through old maps it is clear that they have moved back and forth in places. Someone with decent knowledge of the areas could spend several fruitful hours detailing all of these changes in history sections on the pages.
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 09:15
rileyrob wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 13:44I'm working my way through this to make sure everything is covered by the Wiki. So far I have gone through most of Zone 4 and identified two routes which need further clarification for an update:
This is delightful - really pleased that the wiki version is turning out to be useful :)
I think I knew about this file years ago, it was talked about, but I'm quite sure this is the first time I have ever seen the data.
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From the SABRE Wiki: A613 (Leeds) :


The DfT Card Index road lists from c2002 identify the A613 number as 'Reserved for use for the Kirkumgate - Disforth proposals - Leeds.' Unfortunately, neither place seems to exist with these spellings. Kirkumgate appears to be an archaic spelling of Kirkhamgate near Wakefield, and Disforth is probably a spelling error for Dishforth.

This would make it a descendant of the Kirkhamgate - Dishforth Motorway, a proposal to extend the M1 northwards passing between Leeds

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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by Chris5156 »

rileyrob wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 13:33I've now gone through Zone 6, and apart from A613 (Leeds) I don't think there are any big queries. Hopefully someone will know something about this reserved number though.
Interesting, I hadn’t noticed that one. Kirkhamgate and Dishforth appearing together is strongly suggestive of the original proposal for a northern extension of the M1, which was supposed to branch off the current motorway near Kirkhamgate, pass between Leeds and Bradford, and join the A1 near Dishforth. The demise of that plan was followed by the route that was eventually built, a much shorter new road from the M1 at Belle Isle to the A1 at Aberford.

What I don’t know is why a new three-digit A-road number might be wanted for the Kirkhamgate-Dishforth motorway scheme. Presumably there was a stage at which building it as an A-road and not part of the M1 was given serious consideration.

From the SABRE Wiki: A613 (Leeds) :


The DfT Card Index road lists from c2002 identify the A613 number as 'Reserved for use for the Kirkumgate - Disforth proposals - Leeds.' Unfortunately, neither place seems to exist with these spellings. Kirkumgate appears to be an archaic spelling of Kirkhamgate near Wakefield, and Disforth is probably a spelling error for Dishforth.

This would make it a descendant of the Kirkhamgate - Dishforth Motorway, a proposal to extend the M1 northwards passing between Leeds

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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by Steven »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 15:08 What I don’t know is why a new three-digit A-road number might be wanted for the Kirkhamgate-Dishforth motorway scheme. Presumably there was a stage at which building it as an A-road and not part of the M1 was given serious consideration.
Well, it's better than A6183 (Kirkhamgate - Dishforth)...
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From the SABRE Wiki: A6183 (Kirkhamgate - Dishforth) :

The proposed A6183 was a trunk road that would have started on M1 at Kirkhamgate, south of the Lofthouse Interchange (M1/M62), heads kind of north west, through what passes for a gap between Leeds and Bradford and then a general NNE meandering until Dishforth. It was deleted in favour of a route from M1 to A1 that went east of Leeds, which eventually morphed into the M1 extension.

As the proposal was dropped, the A6183 number was

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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by wrinkly »

rileyrob wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 13:33 I think I knew about this file years ago, it was talked about, but I'm quite sure this is the first time I have ever seen the data.
Perhaps this is the same data I asked about in this post in 2009? The link in the post no longer leads to quite the original place, of course.
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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by rileyrob »

I don't know whether it is something that could / should be rolled out more widely, but I have created a rough template Template:MOT-DfT_Lists and added it to a fairly obscure B road, where we should have data - the B3139. I couldn't quickly find the B road changes from 1935, although I'm sure I typed them up many years ago, so that bit is not accurate.
I've included an option for one additional dated change, but suspect that some routes will need more than one?
Rob.
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I don't like thinking about how badly I am doing.

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From the SABRE Wiki: Template :
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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by rileyrob »

I have now gone through and given all of the A roads at least a cursory check. As previously noted, it is difficult to be certain if there have been local changes within urban areas, due to the vagueness of most of the DfT list, and a lack of street names in some of the wiki entries. However, I have noted changes that I am certain of. Many of the routes listed below will probably benefit from further research, specifically on maps from the 1980s / 1990s which seem the most likely timeframe for the changes noted, or indeed the lifespan of the routes. B roads next I guess.

Possible new routes identified:
A1026 (Ipswich) ‎
A3120 ‎ Totton
A4016 (Cheltenham)
A5096 (Oadby)
A613 (Leeds)
A6039 (Mansfield) ‎
A6520 (Derby) ‎
B3209 (Putney) Thanks only to A3209 entry

Routes where more detail has been found:
A176, A1109, A1125
A2014
A439, A444, A4082, A4123, A4169
A5004 / A5002 (Derbyshire), ‎A5021, A5023, A5124, A5132
A603, A692, A6002, A6464
Rob.
My mission is to travel every road and visit every town, village and hamlet in the British Isles.
I don't like thinking about how badly I am doing.

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From the SABRE Wiki: A1026 (Ipswich) ‎ :


The DfT Card Index from c2002 lists the A1026 as 'Ipswich (ex A45)'. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us how much of the former A45 route was numbered as the A1026. It could, therefore, have been a very short link somewhere in the town centre, although it seems more probable that it was a longer section, perhaps from the A12 to the A1114, right through the town, which is now part of the A1156.

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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by Chris5156 »

rileyrob wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 09:57I have now gone through and given all of the A roads at least a cursory check. As previously noted, it is difficult to be certain if there have been local changes within urban areas, due to the vagueness of most of the DfT list, and a lack of street names in some of the wiki entries. However, I have noted changes that I am certain of. Many of the routes listed below will probably benefit from further research, specifically on maps from the 1980s / 1990s which seem the most likely timeframe for the changes noted, or indeed the lifespan of the routes. B roads next I guess.
Rob, this is brilliant! Thank you for going through in such forensic detail - it's amazing there was so much new information in a document we've had for so long.
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Re: DfT card index of road numbers

Post by rileyrob »

I have just got to the entry for the B676, which still lists the route as being Loughborough - Melton Mowbray, in other words its 1922 route. As the 1925-27 MOT map layer shows the route already extended to Colsterworth (its present terminus), and there were subsequent extensions to Bourne, it proves just how accurate and up to date the whole card index system was by 2002!
Rob.
My mission is to travel every road and visit every town, village and hamlet in the British Isles.
I don't like thinking about how badly I am doing.

http://www.rileyrob.co.uk

From the SABRE Wiki: B676 :

The B676 is a road in two halves, mostly in northern Leicestershire.

The route starts a mile and a half east of Loughborough, at the point where the eastbound A60 TOTSOs left after crossing Cotes Bridge over the River Soar. Heading east, the B676 soon reaches a T-junction, at which it turns right, closely followed by another, at which it TOTSOs left.

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