DfT card index of road numbers

[Chris5156]

Many years ago someone on SABRE obtained a digital copy of the then-DETR's card index of road numbers, which was supposedly the definitive list at that time. It's alluded to on various old threads, and several wiki pages refer to it as well, like the one for the A6180.

But I can't find it anywhere!

It seems odd that we'd reference it but not actually have it available - does anyone still have a copy? And should it be on the wiki, or is there a copyright issue at play?

Thanks

[Steven]

It seems odd that we'd reference it but not actually have it available - does anyone still have a copy? And should it be on the wiki, or is there a copyright issue at play?

I have a copy of the Road Classifications Card Record June 2002 document. IIRC, the problem is that the Wiki upload doesn't support XLS files, but I'll see what I can do.

[Chris5156]

It seems odd that we'd reference it but not actually have it available - does anyone still have a copy? And should it be on the wiki, or is there a copyright issue at play?

I have a copy of the Road Classifications Card Record June 2002 document. IIRC, the problem is that the Wiki upload doesn't support XLS files, but I'll see what I can do.

Hurrah! I’d be happy to see if I can convert it to wiki code, or at least a compatible file format for upload, if I have a copy of the file.

[Big L]

It seems odd that we'd reference it but not actually have it available - does anyone still have a copy? And should it be on the wiki, or is there a copyright issue at play?

I have a copy of the Road Classifications Card Record June 2002 document. IIRC, the problem is that the Wiki upload doesn't support XLS files, but I'll see what I can do.

Just save as a PDF?

[rhyds]

It seems odd that we'd reference it but not actually have it available - does anyone still have a copy? And should it be on the wiki, or is there a copyright issue at play?

I have a copy of the Road Classifications Card Record June 2002 document. IIRC, the problem is that the Wiki upload doesn't support XLS files, but I'll see what I can do.

Just save as a PDF?

That's fine for visual viewing, but not as good if you want to make use of it digitally.

[rhyds]

I assume this XLS sheet is effectively "static", and won't be updated? If so, would it not be possible to host it the old fashioned way by copying the file on to the webserver and providing a link? If we need to maintain cross-device compatibility then csv is also usable

[c2R]

It should be relatively straightforward to save as CSV and then convert to wiki markup. Equally, we can put it somewhere on the webserver and link to it.

[Chris5156]

OK - having now received a copy of the file (thanks Steven!), I've converted it to wiki markup and created a page here:

DfT_Card_Index

It could do with better categorisation, cross links, a tidier introduction, etc etc, but it's a start!

I'd also be interested to hear ideas about whether there's a better title for this page. We got hold of this, I think, before the current DfT existed, and it certainly predates the modern DfT by many years. It probably came to us from the DETR or DTLR, as was, and the cards themselves might date back to the DTp or even DOE. In other words we might not want to refer to it as the "DfT Card Index". But what we should call it... I don't know?

[c2R]

Thanks Chris,
I've added some templates, linked it in with the historical information navbox, and ported (if I've done it correctly) a template that will exclude the page from bot edits, so we don't in future automatically update any of the content.

[Chris5156]

Thanks Chris,
I've added some templates, linked it in with the historical information navbox, and ported (if I've done it correctly) a template that will exclude the page from bot edits, so we don't in future automatically update any of the content.

Magnificent! Thank you

[rhyds]

Thanks for sorting this chaps.

One thing I've noticed is that while A-road records seem to be mostly confined to England with any cross-border sections labelled as "Wales", along with complete ranges such as A467 - A479, the B-road records include the Welsh routes as well.

Also, the B-road records seem to use very old waypoints and spellings (e.g. "Nevin" for "Nefyn", which doesn't seem to be a transcription error) and railway stations closed in the late 1940s.

My guess is the A-Road records were updated over the years with realignments/renumbering, and the ministry may have shoved the Welsh A-road records over to the Welsh Office/Welsh Assembly Government, but nobody bothered sorting the B-road records out

EDIT: Looks like the above guess may be right, found this entry

A4211- 4250 Block allocation made to Welsh Office (Roads Division) on 21/7/65 Welsh Office will notify us when these numbers have been used

Seems nobody bothered to phone the Ministry back...

[Steven]

Would now be a good time to mention that I've found hidden away on the SABRE main server the result of an FoI request from 2005 with all the then-extant M, A and B road numbers in them? It's not quite as interesting as the card index system as it is an export from OS OSCAR data, so it's what the OS believed was in existence at the time.

It's also listed by waypoints rather than start and end (and sorted by road number and then "county" (and yes, "Other Inner London" is apparently a county...)


If it's sufficiently interesting, would Chris consider doing the same pixie magic?

[Chris5156]

Would now be a good time to mention that I've found hidden away on the SABRE main server the result of an FoI request from 2005 with all the then-extant M, A and B road numbers in them? It's not quite as interesting as the card index system as it is an export from OS OSCAR data, so it's what the OS believed was in existence at the time.

It's also listed by waypoints rather than start and end (and sorted by road number and then "county" (and yes, "Other Inner London" is apparently a county...)


If it's sufficiently interesting, would Chris consider doing the same pixie magic?

2005 OSCAR data.jpg

Yikes, that’s a challenge! If you send it over I’ll have a look, though probably not until my next set of nightshifts…

[rileyrob]

I'm working my way through this to make sure everything is covered by the Wiki. So far I have gone through most of Zone 4 and identified two routes which need further clarification for an update:

The A4082 page states: 'The number was taken over from an earlier A4082, the southern part of which (today unclassified) followed a roughly parallel course between Willenhall and Binley.'
This would appear to be the old B4481, but I can't identify any further information or evidence. If the comment can be supported, presumably a new page is required for this defunct route.

The A439 currently extends north of Stratford. The DfT list, old Maps and Wiki pages say it previously ran to the south (mostly now the B439), but there is a lack of clarity as to whether the two sections were concurrent, or if the number was moved when the A46 bypass was built. Either the A439 page needs a history section etc or there needs to be a new defunct page created, but I can't work out which.

[Steven]

The A4082 page states: 'The number was taken over from an earlier A4082, the southern part of which (today unclassified) followed a roughly parallel course between Willenhall and Binley.'
This would appear to be the old B4481, but I can't identify any further information or evidence. If the comment can be supported, presumably a new page is required for this defunct route.

Yes, it is the old B4481. It appears as A4082 on Landranger Sheet 140, First Series Revisions A and A/* (1974 and 1977). On the Second Series Revision A/* (1984), the present route of A4082 is marked as that, plus what is now the B4082. It implies therefore that it's not quite as clear cut as the sentence implies, and it's not so much a defunct road and a present road, more one of a series of moves.

The A439 currently extends north of Stratford. The DfT list, old Maps and Wiki pages say it previously ran to the south (mostly now the B439), but there is a lack of clarity as to whether the two sections were concurrent, or if the number was moved when the A46 bypass was built. Either the A439 page needs a history section etc or there needs to be a new defunct page created, but I can't work out which.

They appear to have been concurrent in the period 1988-1993, according to the OS Routeplanners of the time. I do have the relevant 1:250k sheets, but currently can't get at them to confirm.

[Ross Spur]

The A439 currently extends north of Stratford. The DfT list, old Maps and Wiki pages say it previously ran to the south (mostly now the B439), but there is a lack of clarity as to whether the two sections were concurrent, or if the number was moved when the A46 bypass was built. Either the A439 page needs a history section etc or there needs to be a new defunct page created, but I can't work out which.

They appear to have been concurrent in the period 1988-1993, according to the OS Routeplanners of the time. I do have the relevant 1:250k sheets, but currently can't get at them to confirm.

The 1990 OS Road Atlas shows them as concurrent. The section south of Stratford is B439 on the 1992 OS 1:50000 (reprinted with selected changes 1991).

A46 Stratford Northern Bypass opened in June 1987, Alcester Bypass in 1990/91.

[SouthWest Philip]

The original length of the A439 became the B439 with the opening of the Alcester bypass. This was a couple of years before the dual carriageway between Alcester and Evesham opened, and the A435/A438 through to Tewkesbury was renumbered as part of the A46.

[Alderpoint]

The original length of the A439 became the B439 with the opening of the Alcester bypass. This was a couple of years before the dual carriageway between Alcester and Evesham opened, and the A435/A438 through to Tewkesbury was renumbered as part of the A46.

For many years we went Warwick to Gloucester via this route at least once a month so got to know it pretty well. From what I remember...

Edit: (Ignore this, obviously suffering from brain fade...)

[SouthWest Philip]

For many years we went Warwick to Gloucester via this route at least once a month so got to know it pretty well. From what I remember...

Prior to the Stratford northern bypass being built, the A46 ran from Longbridge roundabout at the bottom end of Warwick bypass (no M40 in those days), through the centre of Stratford and out along the now B439 to Bidford and then to Salford Priors and south of Harvington to join the (then)A435/(now)B4088 just north of Norton and then through the centre of Evesham - until the Evesham bypass was constructed and the A46 went that way.

When the Stratford northern bypass was constructed (mostly along the line of former C-roads), the A46 then took that road to the Alcester Rd (A422?) wast of Stratford, but the road from Stratford to Alcester stayed as the A422. South of Stratford the A46 continued on its previous alignment to Bidford and beyond.

The A46 has never gone through Bidford or the middle of Evesham. Until the late 1980s, it ran as non-primary route along what is now the B4632 through Broadway and Winchcombe.

[Chris5156]

I'm working my way through this to make sure everything is covered by the Wiki. So far I have gone through most of Zone 4 and identified two routes which need further clarification for an update:

This is delightful - really pleased that the wiki version is turning out to be useful