US and the roundabout

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WHBM
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by WHBM » Fri Aug 31, 2018 16:08

This 6-arm is the US roundabout I am most familiar with

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@27.97748 ... a=!3m1!1e3

it loses a lot of capacity because the principal approach, from the right, has 2 lanes into the roundabout. However those in lane 2 (using UK terminology) cannot be certain whether those in lane 2 coming round the roundabout are going to continue or exit, as US drivers do not indicate either way, and by the time you see which way they are exiting it's too late before the next one behind where the same applies.

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by RichardA35 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 16:50

WHBM wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 16:08
This 6-arm is the US roundabout I am most familiar with

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@27.97748 ... a=!3m1!1e3

it loses a lot of capacity because the principal approach, from the right, has 2 lanes into the roundabout. However those in lane 2 (using UK terminology) cannot be certain whether those in lane 2 coming round the roundabout are going to continue or exit, as US drivers do not indicate either way, and by the time you see which way they are exiting it's too late before the next one behind where the same applies.
Do we have an understanding of how roundabout capacity is calculated in the US, how it varies from the UK practice and the sensitivity of the geometrical differences (length of entry flare etc)?
Do they also take account of a different time for gap spotting?

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by J N Winkler » Thu Oct 25, 2018 19:24

RichardA35 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 16:50
Do we have an understanding of how roundabout capacity is calculated in the US, how it varies from the UK practice and the sensitivity of the geometrical differences (length of entry flare etc)?

Do they also take account of a different time for gap spotting?
It's been a while since I looked at roundabout design, so I don't know if locally produced software is now available for roundabout evaluation. In the past British and Australian software has been used.
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Oct 25, 2018 23:25

J N Winkler wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 19:24
RichardA35 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 16:50
Do we have an understanding of how roundabout capacity is calculated in the US, how it varies from the UK practice and the sensitivity of the geometrical differences (length of entry flare etc)?

Do they also take account of a different time for gap spotting?
It's been a while since I looked at roundabout design, so I don't know if locally produced software is now available for roundabout evaluation. In the past British and Australian software has been used.
I do hope that the LHD-RHD difference has been taken into account.
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by c2R » Fri Oct 26, 2018 00:05

Mark Hewitt wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 13:09
Bryn666 wrote:Canada provides the ultimate exception: a rural 4-way stop on a road signposted as an autoroute.

https://goo.gl/maps/LgL3EHvyevP2

This would definitely be a roundabout here.
That junction seems completely mad! Yes, should be a roundabout!
I hadn't noticed this before; but French Canada is more French than France - putting Arrete on a Stop sign - Even in Paris they write Stop...!
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by scragend » Fri Oct 26, 2018 14:15

c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 00:05

I hadn't noticed this before; but French Canada is more French than France - putting Arrete on a Stop sign - Even in Paris they write Stop...!
The signs actually say "Arrêt", which interestingly is a noun rather than an imperative so not really correct. Its use is, I think, just the Francophones in Canada flexing their linguistic muscles.

http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com ... guage.html

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by bothar » Fri Oct 26, 2018 17:43

scragend wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 14:15
c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 00:05

I hadn't noticed this before; but French Canada is more French than France - putting Arrete on a Stop sign - Even in Paris they write Stop...!
The signs actually say "Arrêt", which interestingly is a noun rather than an imperative so not really correct. Its use is, I think, just the Francophones in Canada flexing their linguistic muscles.

http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com ... guage.html
So it is telling you that it is a stop sign, rather than telling you to stop!!
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by WHBM » Fri Oct 26, 2018 18:12

c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 00:05
I hadn't noticed this before; but French Canada is more French than France - putting Arrete on a Stop sign - Even in Paris they write Stop...!
I think you will find that under Quebec provincial law it is illegal to have signs only in English, or even directly bilingual.

See "Public signs and advertising" here

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/ ... ess-quebec

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by KeithW » Sat Oct 27, 2018 09:08

WHBM wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 18:12

I think you will find that under Quebec provincial law it is illegal to have signs only in English, or even directly bilingual.

See "Public signs and advertising" here

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/ ... ess-quebec
I went to a software conference sponsored by EdF in Paris in 1986. There was a group from Quebec who worked for the power company Hydro-Quebec who were French speaking , 2 of us from our London Office and one from New Orleans who had been raised speaking Cajun French. The Parisians struggled with Quebecois French which they described as very old fashioned. The party from Quebec were horrified by the Parisian casual adoption of Anglicisms such as le-weekend instead of fin de semaine. Neither the Parisians or the Quebecois could understand a word Mr LeBoeuf our Cajun spoke and they had to converse with him in English.

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by RichardA626 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:19

KeithW wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 09:08
WHBM wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 18:12

I think you will find that under Quebec provincial law it is illegal to have signs only in English, or even directly bilingual.

See "Public signs and advertising" here

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/ ... ess-quebec
I went to a software conference sponsored by EdF in Paris in 1986. There was a group from Quebec who worked for the power company Hydro-Quebec who were French speaking , 2 of us from our London Office and one from New Orleans who had been raised speaking Cajun French. The Parisians struggled with Quebecois French which they described as very old fashioned. The party from Quebec were horrified by the Parisian casual adoption of Anglicisms such as le-weekend instead of fin de semaine. Neither the Parisians or the Quebecois could understand a word Mr LeBoeuf our Cajun spoke and they had to converse with him in English.
Languages in isolation can change in strange ways.

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by ChrisL » Wed Dec 05, 2018 04:54

WHBM wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 18:12
I think you will find that under Quebec provincial law it is illegal to have signs only in English, or even directly bilingual.

See "Public signs and advertising" here

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/ ... ess-quebec
Technically, the situation with "STOP" in Quebec is weird. The language authorities consider "STOP" to be a valid French word in this context, and hence a bilingual "ARRÊT/STOP" sign (which is what the Canadian federal government would post at a border crossing, airport, or other infrastructure under its ownership in Quebec or anywhere else in Canada) would be a superfluous translation and thus should not be posted anywhere under provincial control. However, the provincial authorities and most municipalities also have a policy of only posting "ARRÊT" signs - you can decide whether this is just linguistic chauvinism or a practical concession to the likely prospect of vandalism of "English-only" "STOP" signs (or a bit of both).

I am told that some majority-English municipalities in greater Montreal do post "STOP" instead of "ARRÊT" (which as noted above, under the letter of the law, is "French" and thus legal under provincial law) but have not personally seen any examples.

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by Bryn666 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:44

ChrisL wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 04:54
WHBM wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 18:12
I think you will find that under Quebec provincial law it is illegal to have signs only in English, or even directly bilingual.

See "Public signs and advertising" here

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/ ... ess-quebec
Technically, the situation with "STOP" in Quebec is weird. The language authorities consider "STOP" to be a valid French word in this context, and hence a bilingual "ARRÊT/STOP" sign (which is what the Canadian federal government would post at a border crossing, airport, or other infrastructure under its ownership in Quebec or anywhere else in Canada) would be a superfluous translation and thus should not be posted anywhere under provincial control. However, the provincial authorities and most municipalities also have a policy of only posting "ARRÊT" signs - you can decide whether this is just linguistic chauvinism or a practical concession to the likely prospect of vandalism of "English-only" "STOP" signs (or a bit of both).

I am told that some majority-English municipalities in greater Montreal do post "STOP" instead of "ARRÊT" (which as noted above, under the letter of the law, is "French" and thus legal under provincial law) but have not personally seen any examples.
Fortunately the octagon is what people recognise before the wording. See the use of the hand symbol in Israel.

Japan is an unusual case and have replaced the Japanese with the English "STOP" on their upside down red triangles. Japan doesn't use "yield" signs.
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by exiled » Wed Dec 05, 2018 13:11

The Americas are unusual in that ALTO and PARE are used in their respective jurisdictions, if they were not it is likely ARRÊT would not have been adopted in Quebec, but the French language standard of STOP.

That it does is an indication that Quebec is an isolate in North America where the provincial sole official language is French and French alone.
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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by jimboLL » Wed Dec 05, 2018 21:01

scragend wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 14:15
c2R wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 00:05

I hadn't noticed this before; but French Canada is more French than France - putting Arrete on a Stop sign - Even in Paris they write Stop...!
The signs actually say "Arrêt", which interestingly is a noun rather than an imperative so not really correct. Its use is, I think, just the Francophones in Canada flexing their linguistic muscles.

http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com ... guage.html

Having been pulled over by a police officer in France who (incorrectly as it happens) castigated me because "vous n'avez pas fait votre stop" (je l'avais fait mais la ligne STOP se situait au moins 5m au dela du carrefour, avec de grands batiments qui blocqaient les lignes de vue, donc j'etais contraint d'avancer soigneusement apres avoir fait mon stop) I would contend that the use of arret as a noun would be entirely consistent. Un stop / un arret.

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by Mark Hewitt » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46

exiled wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 13:11
The Americas are unusual in that ALTO and PARE are used in their respective jurisdictions, if they were not it is likely ARRÊT would not have been adopted in Quebec, but the French language standard of STOP.

That it does is an indication that Quebec is an isolate in North America where the provincial sole official language is French and French alone.
And yet in Spain it's "STOP" and not "ALTO"

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Re: US and the roundabout

Post by J N Winkler » Thu Dec 06, 2018 16:46

I don't think there is any international standardization for whether the noun or imperative form of stop is used. In English they are the same word. In Hispanophone countries where stop is not used, practice divides between alto (noun) and pare (imperative form of parar). Turkey uses dur, which I think is a condensed form of durmak (infinitive).

As for bilingual stop signs on federal government property in Canada, I don't think the Canadian federal government is obliged to consider stop a word in French for purposes of using just that one word for both French and English on a non-designable sign. The federal government does try to adapt designable signs to the manual in use in the instant province (e.g., hill descent signs in national parks in BC with the dashed border that is used only in BC), but the bilingual stop signs are probably ordered off a catalogue that covers all of Canada and it is Québec's decision--not necessarily followed in the other provinces--to allow stop as honorary French.
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