Runways on motorways

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roadtester
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by roadtester » Mon Jul 26, 2021 14:09

Steven wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 16:52
Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 16:44
In that context, I agree - there are two aspects to this, the dispersal of F35B Lightning II with VTOL capability might be able to use parts of WW2 airfields or roads in the same way that Harriers could during the Cold War but Eurofighter Typhoons would need 500 metres of hard surface for conventional take-off and landing.
There were suggestions during the Cold War to disperse the Harrier force to urban areas as well as rural - the most interesting study that I'd heard of was to use large car showrooms which could easily have the glass fronts taken out and support one or two aircraft in each, with the roads fronting them being perfect for VSTOL operation.
I think the F35 can take off vertically, but this isn't normally used.

That said, AIUI both the F35 and the Typhoon can take off in a very short distance indeed. Certainly the F35 uses only a small portion of the 280m length of the QE carriers to get away, albeit with a bit of help from the ski-jump, so any stretch of road it uses presumably doesn't need to be very long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqTHf71tnA
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by roadtester » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15

Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:

https://twitter.com/OC207Sqn/status/1420688659469246471
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by KeithW » Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:39

I believe a number of US Freeways were designed in the 1940's and early 50's with sections straight and long enough to be used as dispersal strips in time of war. The problem was that by the time they were built all the aircraft in service were larger an heavier than the design catered for so they were simply not constructed that way. There was no way you could operate even a B-47 from one let alone a B-52 or B-58.

There was some provision of emergency airstrips just off freeways accessed via an exit. Some RAF airfields in the UK such as RAF Middleton St George (now Teesside Airport) were built with runways long enough to act as dispersal bases for the V Bomber force. They aircraft normally operated from there were Lightning and Gloster Javelin fighters.

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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by KeithW » Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:52

roadtester wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:

https://twitter.com/OC207Sqn/status/1420688659469246471
It can do so but only with a minimal fuel/weapons however if a ski jump is used it can take off with a heavier load after a short run. If its on a carrier doing 30 knots into the wind then that makes a huge difference. The WW2 Doolittle raid on Tokyo only worked because the USN carriers were steaming at flank speed into the wind.

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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by JohnnyMo » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:10

KeithW wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 14:39
I believe a number of US Freeways were designed in the 1940's and early 50's with sections straight and long enough to be used as dispersal strips in time of war. The problem was that by the time they were built all the aircraft in service were larger an heavier than the design catered for so they were simply not constructed that way. There was no way you could operate even a B-47 from one let alone a B-52 or B-58.

There was some provision of emergency airstrips just off freeways accessed via an exit. Some RAF airfields in the UK such as RAF Middleton St George (now Teesside Airport) were built with runways long enough to act as dispersal bases for the V Bomber force. They aircraft normally operated from there were Lightning and Gloster Javelin fighters.
IIRC I read somewhere Javelins had a poor takeoff performance and needed a long runways to get airborne.
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by JohnnyMo » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13

roadtester wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:

https://twitter.com/OC207Sqn/status/1420688659469246471
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by roadtester » Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:19

JohnnyMo wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13
roadtester wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:

https://twitter.com/OC207Sqn/status/1420688659469246471
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
I'm not sure, but I believe the F35B, while having STOVL capability, is far less capable of operating in austere/improvised conditions than the Harrier was.

This suggests the jets need a special surface for a hover/vertical landing, but I think they may be OK on a normal surface on a rolling take off/landing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/f-35 ... first-time

I think the landing spots on the carriers have special surfaces as well.
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by M4 Cardiff » Tue Aug 03, 2021 20:58

It's not just VTOL that can damage roads, or runways....
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3_mQZ4gY8
Driving thrombosis caused this accident......a clot behind the wheel.

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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by mikehindsonevans » Thu Aug 26, 2021 23:34

roadtester wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:19
JohnnyMo wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 15:13
roadtester wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:15
Further to my above post, saw this at random on Twitter, showing how short the take-off is, or can be, on the F-35B. It lifts off almost straight away. I'm guessing - from a position of zero expertise/knowledge - that this will vary quite a bit according to weapons and fuel loads, though:

https://twitter.com/OC207Sqn/status/1420688659469246471
I wonder how the road would cope with the jet exhausts being vectored onto the road surface. What is the melting point of tar?
I'm not sure, but I believe the F35B, while having STOVL capability, is far less capable of operating in austere/improvised conditions than the Harrier was.

This suggests the jets need a special surface for a hover/vertical landing, but I think they may be OK on a normal surface on a rolling take off/landing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/f-35 ... first-time

I think the landing spots on the carriers have special surfaces as well.
If there is a war going on, returning to the same spot of melted tarmac is unlikely to be high on the list of military priorities.
Mike Hindson-Evans.
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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by avtur » Fri Aug 27, 2021 06:27

M4 Cardiff wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 20:58
It's not just VTOL that can damage roads, or runways....
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3_mQZ4gY8
A similar thing happened at Prestwick just a few weeks ago as a departing 747 freighter powered up for departure.

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/prestwick-airport-runway

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Re: Runways on motorways

Post by ROAD ROVER » Fri Aug 27, 2021 08:15

M4 Cardiff wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 20:58
It's not just VTOL that can damage roads, or runways....
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3_mQZ4gY8
My brother actually painted that Vampire when it was housed at North Weald (2008 on this timeline: https://vampireflight.co.uk/aircraft-crew/ ). I'm not sure if it's still there.
Following a couple of botched attempts his name was suggested by someone who knew of him (a past customer or somesuch) so he took it on. A bit of experimentation got the job done. Due to the size the two pack paint was drying before the spray-runs were completed causing lines but he found that using cellulose thinners kept the paint tacky for longer leaving an even finish & it came out very nicely. As a result he was offered more aero work but he declined as price per foot it just didn't pay as well as cars. :laugh:

https://ibb.co/SRt7cdg

Our father is in that picture who was stationed at the airfield in the fifties.

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