A break in the Netherlands

Going on holiday? Just returned with pictures or news? Found an interesting website? Post everything international in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Viator
Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 19:06
Location: Llan-giwg

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Viator »

Chris Bertram wrote:A mystery was solved, for me at least - how the Dutch pronounce "ui". We were on a tram to the Anne Frank Huis, and the in-car announcement pronounced it "house". A city square called Spui was also pronounced "Spow". So that settles it for me. This also means that bruin = brown, and zuid (south) = zoud to our English ears. Anyone got any contrary evidence?
Native speakers of Dutch will always vigorously deny that "uit" rhymes with "out" and "huis" with "house" -- and the sounds are technically different [*] -- but I agree with you that "to our English ears", as you say, they as near enough as dammit do... The Dutch words sound especially like the way these words are popularly pronounced in the English South Midlands / Thames valley area (including Oxford -- by which I mean the real local pronunciation, not that of university dons!).

[*] Another reason the Dutch deny our English uit/out rhyme is that they have a different "ow" sound in words like "oud" (=old), so that uit and oud certainly don't rhyme (in Dutch) -- but to us they both sound rather like different versions of "out". For those who remember him, "oud" is very close to how Edward Heath used to say "out".
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9708
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by WHBM »

Viator wrote:Edward Heath
GROCER !!!!!
User avatar
lefthandedspanner
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 21:25
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Viator wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:A mystery was solved, for me at least - how the Dutch pronounce "ui". We were on a tram to the Anne Frank Huis, and the in-car announcement pronounced it "house". A city square called Spui was also pronounced "Spow". So that settles it for me. This also means that bruin = brown, and zuid (south) = zoud to our English ears. Anyone got any contrary evidence?
Native speakers of Dutch will always vigorously deny that "uit" rhymes with "out" and "huis" with "house" -- and the sounds are technically different [*] -- but I agree with you that "to our English ears", as you say, they as near enough as dammit do... The Dutch words sound especially like the way these words are popularly pronounced in the English South Midlands / Thames valley area (including Oxford -- by which I mean the real local pronunciation, not that of university dons!).

[*] Another reason the Dutch deny our English uit/out rhyme is that they have a different "ow" sound in words like "oud" (=old), so that uit and oud certainly don't rhyme (in Dutch) -- but to us they both sound rather like different versions of "out". For those who remember him, "oud" is very close to how Edward Heath used to say "out".
If you pronounce "out" with a strong accent that's half Lancashire and half Ulster, that's about the nearest approximation you can get to "uit" in English.
User avatar
FleetlinePhil
Member
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:26
Location: Calder Valley

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by FleetlinePhil »

Chris Bertram wrote:
From reading the road atlas, it looks like the Belgian coast tram mainly runs in the median of dual carriageways.
That is pretty much the case outside the various towns, but there are some interesting features. At two points in Zeebrugge and also just East of Oostende station, there are branches that allow the tram to use cross over either end of large canal locks as dictated by shipping movements. How often this is now required I have no idea, although we certainly did use one of the Zeebrugge diversions back in the early 90's.

The line deviates inland through Nieuwpoort (arguably one of the more interesting towns on the route) to cross the Yser estuary, and then runs to the east of the N34 through Lombardsijde. On our first trip in 1993, my wife, young son and I were sat on the bench seat at the back of the single-ended tram, heading back North to Oostende, and as we approached the light-controlled junction where the line crosses the northbound carriageway of the N34, I noticed there was a car catching us up very quickly. You can guess the make, but it was actually a white one rather than black. Only as he saw the front section of the tram start crossing the road in front of him did he make any effort to stop, which fortunately he was able to just about do. It was raining too, and pretty alarming at the time!
Last edited by FleetlinePhil on Wed Dec 06, 2017 14:58, edited 5 times in total.
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by mikehindsonevans »

lefthandedspanner wrote:
Viator wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:A mystery was solved, for me at least - how the Dutch pronounce "ui". We were on a tram to the Anne Frank Huis, and the in-car announcement pronounced it "house". A city square called Spui was also pronounced "Spow". So that settles it for me. This also means that bruin = brown, and zuid (south) = zoud to our English ears. Anyone got any contrary evidence?
Native speakers of Dutch will always vigorously deny that "uit" rhymes with "out" and "huis" with "house" -- and the sounds are technically different [*] -- but I agree with you that "to our English ears", as you say, they as near enough as dammit do... The Dutch words sound especially like the way these words are popularly pronounced in the English South Midlands / Thames valley area (including Oxford -- by which I mean the real local pronunciation, not that of university dons!).

[*] Another reason the Dutch deny our English uit/out rhyme is that they have a different "ow" sound in words like "oud" (=old), so that uit and oud certainly don't rhyme (in Dutch) -- but to us they both sound rather like different versions of "out". For those who remember him, "oud" is very close to how Edward Heath used to say "out".
If you pronounce "out" with a strong accent that's half Lancashire and half Ulster, that's about the nearest approximation you can get to "uit" in English.
SO how on earth do the Dutch get on when they visit Geordieland??
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5676
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Vierwielen »

ScottB5411 wrote:Me and the better half are going to Amsterdam for 3 days before we head to my mum's in Preston. Our hotel is out at the airport (I had enough points for the whole stay there) and we'll be going in and out on the train. Wife has never been to Holland before so she's looking forward to it and the Christmas markets at the various squares. We also have a dinner cruise on the canals that she doesn't know about :-)
I trust that you enjoy yourselves.

BTW, the Dutch are not into Christmas markets - their big days are Sint Niklaus (6 December) and New Year.

I worked in NL during 1999/2000. While that year the Brits had Monday 27 Dec, (in lieu of Christmas Day being on a Saturday), Tuesday 28 December (in lieu of Boxing Day being on a Sunday) and Friday 31 December (special day for the millenium) as bank holidays, the Dutch had no holidays that week. (PS, I am half-Dutch)
User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by ScottB5411 »

Vierwielen wrote:
ScottB5411 wrote:Me and the better half are going to Amsterdam for 3 days before we head to my mum's in Preston. Our hotel is out at the airport (I had enough points for the whole stay there) and we'll be going in and out on the train. Wife has never been to Holland before so she's looking forward to it and the Christmas markets at the various squares. We also have a dinner cruise on the canals that she doesn't know about :-)
I trust that you enjoy yourselves.

BTW, the Dutch are not into Christmas markets - their big days are Sint Niklaus (6 December) and New Year.

I worked in NL during 1999/2000. While that year the Brits had Monday 27 Dec, (in lieu of Christmas Day being on a Saturday), Tuesday 28 December (in lieu of Boxing Day being on a Sunday) and Friday 31 December (special day for the millenium) as bank holidays, the Dutch had no holidays that week. (PS, I am half-Dutch)
Hmmm, Amsterdam has a website dedicated to the various markets on the different squares, hope it's all legit then. Don't need an unhappy Mrs ;-)

https://amsterdam.org/en/event/119/chri ... arket.html
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?
User avatar
FleetlinePhil
Member
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:26
Location: Calder Valley

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by FleetlinePhil »

Hmmm, Amsterdam has a website dedicated to the various markets on the different squares, hope it's all legit then. Don't need an unhappy Mrs ;-)
The website looks good to me. I know historically the Dutch made more of 6th December for their children, but I don't suppose they can avoid the spread of the "Christmas Market" concept across Europe. In 1999, it could have been reasonably said the British weren't into Christmas markets (Lincoln and perhaps a few other historic exceptions apart), now nearly every city has them.

I'm sure you will have a wonderful time, it's a great city.

Incidentally, I seem to be having trouble when using a quote. How do you get the attribution to show? I've not generally been involved with forums before, and I'm obviously missing something :confused:
User avatar
mapboy
Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 08:53
Location: Birmingham

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by mapboy »

FleetlinePhil wrote:Incidentally, I seem to be having trouble when using a quote. How do you get the attribution to show? I've not generally been involved with forums before, and I'm obviously missing something :confused:
One can write quotes in two different ways:

Code: Select all

[quote]Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet[/quote]
[quote="Filler Text"]Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet[/quote]
These give the following results respectively:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
Filler Text wrote:Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
If the name in the quotation marks in the example above is a member of the forum, they will additionally receive a notification to inform them that their post has been quoted. Clicking the Quote Button [“] in the top right corner of a post you wish to quote will automatically do this for you. You might also find this page useful in acquainting yourself with the other codes.
User avatar
FleetlinePhil
Member
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:26
Location: Calder Valley

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by FleetlinePhil »

"mapboy"If the name in the quotation marks in the example above is a member of the forum, they will additionally receive a notification to inform them that their post has been quoted. Clicking the Quote Button [“] in the top right corner of a post you wish to quote will automatically do this for you. You might also find this page useful in acquainting yourself with the other codes.
Hartelijk dank, mapboy! I will have to have a closer look tomorrow, but I think I see where I'm going wrong. :wink:
scott125
Member
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 14:50

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by scott125 »

Chris Bertram wrote:SWMBO and I spent most of last week in the Netherlands. We took the ferry from Dover to Dunkirk, and drove up through France and Belgium, crossing into NL between Antwerp and Breda. Here are a few observations:

1) Belgian motorways often have wide central reservations, wide enough to place offside direction signs in, so you should have no excuse for missing your exit.
2) Antwerp's ring roads get *very* busy at rush hour. We ended up being diverted through the northern suburbs, taking in a tunnel under the Schelde en route.
3) Hard shoulders in NL are often designated as bus lanes "bij file", i.e. when there are queues.
4) There's often free parking in smaller towns, where I'd expect British towns of similar size to charge.
5) It's usually premium German cars that come up behind you at great speed - similar to the UK. Audi drivers, as ever, are worst.
6) If visiting Amsterdam take a public transport option. We tried two - on one day, we used 1-day travelcards, which cover all regional public transport for a full day, so we used the bus to get to Centraal Station, then trams to get to the Rijksmuseum, Anne Frank Huis etc. This was EUR18.50 each. The next day, we used a P+R facility just off the A10 ring road. Here, return tram tickets to Centraal Station were EUR5.00 for two, but did not cover onward travel within the city. If you use the P+R as intended, for city-bound travel, parking is EUR1.00 only!
7) Bikes. They were everywhere, and almost all were the heavy-framed sit-up-and-beg type known as Oma-fietsen, or "Granny bikes". They were often fitted with baskets and/or child seats fore or aft, sometimes with a windshield as well. There were almost no Lycra warriors to be seen, though I did see a couple on an inter-urban route. The Dutch appear to prefer to keep athletic cycling off the public roads.
8) Scooters. Lots of these, usually in the cycle path, normally with no helmet, except for pizza delivery riders. Frequently ridden pillion.
9) Trams - narrow gauge compared with modern UK trams, therefore with narrower bodies, and felt a bit cramped inside. But frequent and convenient. We didn't try any other railed transport (Amsterdam metro or NS), and the town we stayed at did not have a railway station.
10) Buses - can use tram lanes as well as their own bus lanes. Both are controlled by dinky little signals known as "negenoog", or nine-eyed, as they can have up to nine small lights in them to indicate stop, give way or direction travel is permitted. When on the main carriageway, buses obey the general traffic signals.
11) Lifting bridges - plenty of these, though we were never held up by one. This is the Low Country, and you are never far from water. God made the world, but the Dutch built Holland.
12) Canals, drains and ditches - by the side of many roads, and rarely will you find a barrier or fence between road and a possible free car wash. Amsterdam was the exception to this, but even there the barriers are low, except over bridges.

All in all, driving was not difficult. The hairiest moments were on the Belgian motorways, and the lowest standard of motorway was the French A16 between the border and Dunkirk ferry port. The motorway between Utrecht and Amsterdam is magnificently wide, I lost count of the number of lanes across four carriageways at one point. Even so, there were episodes of congestion. NL is a very densely-populated country, especially within the "Randstad", the area covering Amsterdam, Utrecht, Rotterdam and The Hague.

Fun fact: Schiphol airport is about 3m below sea level, and is within the Haarlemmermeer Polder, a lake drained quite some time ago.

Any questions?
Im surprised with them scooters in the cycle lane s that you dont need a helment , if it was Greece id not be surprised .
I find a lot of the newer housing in the Netherlands pretty similar to UK housing .
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5676
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Vierwielen »

mikehindsonevans wrote:
lefthandedspanner wrote:
Viator wrote: Native speakers of Dutch will always vigorously deny that "uit" rhymes with "out" and "huis" with "house" -- and the sounds are technically different [*] -- but I agree with you that "to our English ears", as you say, they as near enough as dammit do... The Dutch words sound especially like the way these words are popularly pronounced in the English South Midlands / Thames valley area (including Oxford -- by which I mean the real local pronunciation, not that of university dons!).

[*] Another reason the Dutch deny our English uit/out rhyme is that they have a different "ow" sound in words like "oud" (=old), so that uit and oud certainly don't rhyme (in Dutch) -- but to us they both sound rather like different versions of "out". For those who remember him, "oud" is very close to how Edward Heath used to say "out".
If you pronounce "out" with a strong accent that's half Lancashire and half Ulster, that's about the nearest approximation you can get to "uit" in English.
So how on earth do the Dutch get on when they visit Geordieland??
They get a Norwegian to help them. Apparently Norwegian and Geordie are sufficiently similar that if they speak slowly to each other, they can understand each other. Since both are Viking languages, this is not as daft as it sounds at first. (Any Geordies or Noggies like to comment - this is purely hearsay on my part).
scott125
Member
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 14:50

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by scott125 »

Vierwielen wrote:
mikehindsonevans wrote:
lefthandedspanner wrote:
If you pronounce "out" with a strong accent that's half Lancashire and half Ulster, that's about the nearest approximation you can get to "uit" in English.
So how on earth do the Dutch get on when they visit Geordieland??
They get a Norwegian to help them. Apparently Norwegian and Geordie are sufficiently similar that if they speak slowly to each other, they can understand each other. Since both are Viking languages, this is not as daft as it sounds at first. (Any Geordies or Noggies like to comment - this is purely hearsay on my part).
Always thought that the people from Shetlands sound like Norwegians
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Chris Bertram »

scott125 wrote:Always thought that the people from Shetlands sound like Norwegians
If you hear the Faroe Islanders speak English, you'll recognise the similarity.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5676
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris Bertram wrote:A couple of non-motoring observations:

... snip ...

2) A mystery was solved, for me at least - how the Dutch pronounce "ui". We were on a tram to the Anne Frank Huis, and the in-car announcement pronounced it "house". A city square called Spui was also pronounced "Spow". So that settles it for me. This also means that bruin = brown, and zuid (south) = zoud to our English ears. Anyone got any contrary evidence?
As one whose mother tongue is English, but who speaks some Dutch (and also a lot more Afrikaans), the best way that I can describe the pronunciation of "ui" in Dutch is to say that it is like pronouncing the "a" in "age", while using the lip and throat formation required to say "oi". (The Afrikaans pronunciation is the same as the Dutch pronunciation).
User avatar
lefthandedspanner
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 21:25
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Vierwielen wrote:
mikehindsonevans wrote:
lefthandedspanner wrote:
If you pronounce "out" with a strong accent that's half Lancashire and half Ulster, that's about the nearest approximation you can get to "uit" in English.
So how on earth do the Dutch get on when they visit Geordieland??
They get a Norwegian to help them. Apparently Norwegian and Geordie are sufficiently similar that if they speak slowly to each other, they can understand each other. Since both are Viking languages, this is not as daft as it sounds at first. (Any Geordies or Noggies like to comment - this is purely hearsay on my part).
A lot of northern English and Scots dialect is primarily descended from older forms of English, with some Nordic influence - and Geordie is possibly the nearest living relative of old English.
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5676
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Vierwielen »

lefthandedspanner wrote:
Vierwielen wrote:
mikehindsonevans wrote: So how on earth do the Dutch get on when they visit Geordieland??
They get a Norwegian to help them. Apparently Norwegian and Geordie are sufficiently similar that if they speak slowly to each other, they can understand each other. Since both are Viking languages, this is not as daft as it sounds at first. (Any Geordies or Noggies like to comment - this is purely hearsay on my part).
A lot of northern English and Scots dialect is primarily descended from older forms of English, with some Nordic influence - and Geordie is possibly the nearest living relative of old English.
I always believed that the Frisian language was the closest living language to English - see this "family tree".
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by Chris Bertram »

Vierwielen wrote:
lefthandedspanner wrote:A lot of northern English and Scots dialect is primarily descended from older forms of English, with some Nordic influence - and Geordie is possibly the nearest living relative of old English.
I always believed that the Frisian language was the closest living language to English - see this "family tree".
As ever, it depends on definitions. Many people would contend that the Black Country dialect is the closest descendant of Old English, or Anglo-Saxon as I think we're now supposed to call it. Geordie is far more influenced by Norse than by Saxon.

Frisian - or rather West Frisian, as spoken in the Dutch province of Friesland - is indeed the closest relative to English on a parallel branch of the language tree, but is not mutually intelligible to any great degree. And the other main versions of Frisian, spoken in areas of Germany, are rather less close.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
vlad
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 16:20
Location: Near the northern end of the A34

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by vlad »

Vierwielen wrote:I always believed that the Frisian language was the closest living language to English - see this "family tree".
Technically that's true (provided you don't believe certain regional varieties of English are languages in their own right). However, you have to remember English is a mongrel and so things aren't as you'd expect.

For example, it's far easier for a native speaker of English to understand a passage of written French than any other Germanic language, although linguists will tell you French is far further away....
"If you expect nothing from somebody you are never disappointed." - Sylvia Plath
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: A break in the Netherlands

Post by FosseWay »

Chris Bertram wrote:
Vierwielen wrote:
lefthandedspanner wrote:A lot of northern English and Scots dialect is primarily descended from older forms of English, with some Nordic influence - and Geordie is possibly the nearest living relative of old English.
I always believed that the Frisian language was the closest living language to English - see this "family tree".
As ever, it depends on definitions. Many people would contend that the Black Country dialect is the closest descendant of Old English, or Anglo-Saxon as I think we're now supposed to call it. Geordie is far more influenced by Norse than by Saxon.

Frisian - or rather West Frisian, as spoken in the Dutch province of Friesland - is indeed the closest relative to English on a parallel branch of the language tree, but is not mutually intelligible to any great degree. And the other main versions of Frisian, spoken in areas of Germany, are rather less close.
As Chris says, it depends on how you define "close". In terms of the historical development of the languages, Frisian may be the closest; it's certainly often stated that the closest *national* language to English is Dutch. But that doesn't explain why of all the Germanic languages I have the most problem understanding spoken Dutch - even more than Danish. Dutch has a number of features that make it less intelligible to English speakers, even those who can speak e.g. German or a Scandinavian language. It has sounds that English doesn't have, including vowel combinations that are important to the meaning (e.g. ui/ou as mentioned). It has word order that is closer to German than Scandi, never mind English. It has spelling conventions that make words look odd on paper when the equivalent German or Scandi word looks much more similar to English. (The same problem exists for Russian speakers when faced with the consonant soup that is Polish, only with Dutch it's vowels.)

It's hard for me to judge because I speak one of the languages concerned fluently, but I would imagine that a clear dialect of Norwegian (Oslo will do) or reasonably neutral Swedish (from a belt of land from south of the Norwegian border across to Stockholm) are likely to give best results for someone who has had little exposure to any other Germanic languages but has a reasonable ear. If they're a Scot, a Geordie or a Yorkshireman, even more so. There are plenty of shared words, especially in everyday situations, the grammar is minimal as in English, and the word order works much more like English than German or Dutch do, so you have a fighting chance of working out which bit is which. But most of all, the sounds are given their full quantities by careful speakers and there is a reasonable correlation between written and spoken language.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Post Reply