Germany: route advice

[FosseWay]

We are going on holiday by car to Germany in a few weeks, with the main aim being to meet up with friends in the Black Forest just north of Basel. On the way down, we will stop off at various places to see people and are unlikely to drive more than 2-3 hours a day with the route dictated by what we want to see rather than getting there quickly. On the way back, though, I will be on my own and simply need to get from the far south (Basel) to the far north (the ferry from Kiel) in as hassle-free a way as possible. The ferry leaves at 1830, and I have already decided I am not willing to get up sufficiently early to drive the whole route in one day, so I have reasonable reserves of spare time. Nevertheless I have limited enthusiasm for sitting in sweltering heat in a traffic jam.

From looking at Google, it seems I have two obvious options south of the junction between Autobahnen 5 and 7 west of Bad Hersfeld. Either I take the 5 from Freiburg via Frankfurt, or I take the 81 via Stuttgart and pick up the 7 at Würzburg. North of the 5/7 junction it seems most sensible to follow the 7 all the way to Kiel.

Does anyone know if one is better/less prone to congestion than the other? My gut feeling is to avoid Frankfurt, but it may be that the greater traffic density there is more than cancelled out by better roads.

[roadtester]

I’m pondering a trip next week to drive the entire length of the A7 between the Danish and Austrian borders. Just a completist thing - I’ve never done it before and it’s the longest autobahn in Germany.

In general, I think most of the north/south autobahns will be busy with holiday traffic at this time of year - lots of transit traffic from Scandinavia or, famously, Dutch people with their caravans. If I had to guess, I’d say the 5 was much more likely to be busy than the 81, and not just near Frankfurt.

[FosseWay]

Great, thanks.

I'm hoping that by the end of August the worst of the holiday traffic will have died down. Scandinavians in particular will already have been back at work/school for getting on for 3-4 weeks at that point.

I still haven't decided where to break the journey, but for peace of mind I will try to get as much of the distance out of the way on the first day and leave relatively little on the second. If can get to e.g. Hannover on the first day, and find I've got tons of time left over, I can spend the day exploring somewhere interesting.

[roadtester]

The other thing to look out for is that the school holidays are staggered between the different Laender in order to spread the load. This table shows this year’s dates:

https://www.schulferien.org

[Andy P]

I'm more familiar with the A5 than the A7, but I know from experience that severe congestion can arise in many parts of the German motorway system, often unexpectedly.

My advice would be prepared to be flexible, and keep an eye on Google maps (which I find is a reliable indicator of congestion in Germany) and the VMSs.

A few specific points:

If you choose the A5 route, be aware that there is a parallel route between Walldorf and Darmstadt using A6/A67. It is D3M as far as Lorsch - the A5 is D2M for this stretch.

I've often encountered congestion for no apparent reason on the A5 some distance north of Frankfurt, but at other times it is clear.

Travelling north on the A5, I've found there are sometimes queues at the junction with the A7.

Last time I went that way on the A5, the VMSs were showing +60 minutes (iirc) between Gießen and the A7. I chose to use the B3 and A49, which probably saved a lot of time, and driving on a normal road made a pleasant change from the motorway.

[FosseWay]

Great, thanks for the advice.

My plans at the moment are to aim to drive from the Black Forest to Celle and spend the night there, which takes about 8 hours according to Google (which also recommends the A81/A7 variant). If I get there later than planned due to congestion there is no harm done. I then have just over 2 hours' driving according to Google to get to Kiel on the second day, meaning I can spend the morning exploring Celle, which seems to be an interesting historic town.

I may choose to leave the Autobahn from time to time anyway for a change of scene and to improve alertness.

[Owain]

Does anyone know if one is better/less prone to congestion than the other? My gut feeling is to avoid Frankfurt, but it may be that the greater traffic density there is more than cancelled out by better roads.

Do you have the Google Maps app on your phone? If the setting is activated (which comes, I think, by default because I never activated it), this shows traffic conditions in green, amber and red, based on level of congestion. It seems to update very frequently, and I've been quite impressed by its accuracy on a number of trips.

One thing you could do is use it ahead of the big drive to monitor whether or not one of those Autobahnen is more prone to congestion than the other. Take a look at it on the day that is precisely one week ahead of your trip, so that you can see what the conditions are like at that time on that day.

Obviously the app cannot predict accidents or roadworks, but I've found that looking at it in advance can give me an idea of what traffic conditions to expect on a certain road at a certain time.

I’m pondering a trip next week to drive the entire length of the A7 between the Danish and Austrian borders. Just a completist thing - I’ve never done it before and it’s the longest autobahn in Germany.

That's on my 'to do' list! I also want to do the entire A3 between the Dutch and Austrian borders.

So far I've done A3 from the border to the A7, and then the A7 from the A3 to the A96.

I clocked an indicated 110mph on the A7, which had very little traffic down in the deep south. The A3 through the Westfalia conurbation was horrific, and I was lucky to even manage 70mph.

[roadtester]

Great, thanks for the advice.

My plans at the moment are to aim to drive from the Black Forest to Celle and spend the night there, which takes about 8 hours according to Google (which also recommends the A81/A7 variant). If I get there later than planned due to congestion there is no harm done. I then have just over 2 hours' driving according to Google to get to Kiel on the second day, meaning I can spend the morning exploring Celle, which seems to be an interesting historic town.

Also formerly an important British garrison town.

[roadtester]

I’m pondering a trip next week to drive the entire length of the A7 between the Danish and Austrian borders. Just a completist thing - I’ve never done it before and it’s the longest autobahn in Germany.

That's on my 'to do' list! I also want to do the entire A3 between the Dutch and Austrian borders.

So far I've done A3 from the border to the A7, and then the A7 from the A3 to the A96.

I clocked an indicated 110mph on the A7, which had very little traffic down in the deep south. The A3 through the Westfalia conurbation was horrific, and I was lucky to even manage 70mph.

I'm now weighing up the A7 idea against an alternative road trip, which is Harwich > Hook of Holland > Berlin (entire length of A2) > Munich (entire length of A9) > northwest Germany (entire length of A8 and A61) > home.

Dithering over the choice as usual.

[Andy P]

I'm now weighing up the A7 idea against an alternative road trip, which is Harwich > Hook of Holland > Berlin (entire length of A2) > Munich (entire length of A9) > northwest Germany (entire length of A8 and A61) > home.

Nice trip.

But if I can be a bit pedantic, that's not the entire A8: there are orphan parts between Salzburg and Munich (easy to add to your trip) and between Pirmasens and Schengen (not so easy to combine with A61).
[Yes, THAT Schengen!]

I find the A61 busy and boring (apart from the bridges over the Rhine and Mosel) so if driving complete roads is your aim, I'd be inclined to do A8 and return through Luxembourg.

[roadtester]

I'm now weighing up the A7 idea against an alternative road trip, which is Harwich > Hook of Holland > Berlin (entire length of A2) > Munich (entire length of A9) > northwest Germany (entire length of A8 and A61) > home.

Nice trip.

But if I can be a bit pedantic, that's not the entire A8: there are orphan parts between Salzburg and Munich (easy to add to your trip) and between Pirmasens and Schengen (not so easy to combine with A61).
[Yes, THAT Schengen!]

I find the A61 busy and boring (apart from the bridges over the Rhine and Mosel) so if driving complete roads is your aim, I'd be inclined to do A8 and return through Luxembourg.

Yes thanks for correcting me - I meant without that bit between Munich and Austria, although I was a bit hazy on the Pirmasens/Schengen thing (must go and look that up!).

I'm always open to a stop in Luxembourg for ca. EUR1.00 per litre fuel!

The background to this is that I've travelled most of the main autobahns already - I spent most of my childhood in Germany between 1966 and 1977 and then worked there between early 1996 and late 1998 - but I haven't done some of them for ages so I'd like to revisit them, as well as fill some gaps.

The last time I did the bulk of the A2, for example, was in 1980 when I'd just passed my test and I was helping my dad with the driving on a family holiday to Berlin when the Wall and the watchtowers were still in place.

There is also quite a bit of new construction in the former GDR that I am interested in seeing - especially the A20 across the North and the A71 through Thuringia (see separate thread).

I agree with what you say about the character of the A61. Also the last time I went that way a few years ago, there was very little that was derestricted speed limit-wise as well. It's just completism, really.

The whole thing is crystallising into the idea of systematically trying to drive every autobahn in Germany, and revisiting the many places in Germany that have played a significant role in my life - although it's clearly a multi-year project, assuming it's practical at all!

[Chris5156]

Obviously the app cannot predict accidents or roadworks, but I've found that looking at it in advance can give me an idea of what traffic conditions to expect on a certain road at a certain time.

The web version of Google Maps can make that much easier. Set a start and end point for your journey, and you'll see there's a drop-down menu labelled "leave now", which you can change to tell it you want to leave or arrive at a particular time. It then tells you what the traffic is usually like at the time you want to travel.

[SarahJ]

Back after a couple of weeks of autobahning/autorouting and autostrading. For some reason my sat nav tries to pick odd routes from Seefeldt to Ruddesheim, but we did the classic. A95 up to Munich,and we had a blast, managed 155 for slight moment, but doing 130-140 was the norm. Munich Mittle Ring. Lots of tunnels, but slow, but the speed limit is only 60k, even on the D3 sections. A9. The massive long roadworks have gone, but the road was very busy with lots of stop start plus 100 driving. A3. There had been a crash and delays of over an hour were predicted, but the traffic kept moving. It's mainly D2, but the widening to D3 is coming along, and almost complete after Wurzburg. For you A7 fans, the junction with the A3, S/B to W/B was jammed solid. Usual autobahn speeds, 120 to 50/60. Good run through Frankfurt (jammed heading west) and the 66 to Wiesbaden was the best I'd ever seen. Next day after a drive up the Rhein we joined the A61 at Koblenz. It was mainly limited to 120-130 kmh. Count those Dutch Caravans. I'm sure the Bridges look great from below, but on them....Last time they were all being repaired. All mainly complete now. A4 to Aachen was again, the usual, 120 mph, or 50 mph. Back in Belgium decided to do the full E40 and it was dead. Hard to do the 75mph/120 kmh on a empty D3. Even the Brussels ring ran well, and when your moving, it's not that long.

2 Weeks
40 Hours
2300 miles
32.9 mpg (3.5 twin turbo)
55.4 av mph

[Owain]

The whole thing is crystallising into the idea of systematically trying to drive every autobahn in Germany, and revisiting the many places in Germany that have played a significant role in my life - although it's clearly a multi-year project, assuming it's practical at all!

I find the idea of driving the F9 Autobahnen quite appealing, and realistic considering that I don't go to Germany very much.

I'm on the Newhaven-Dieppe ferry now, and within the next few weeks I hope to complete the French A6 as well as the A4 on return. I've already done A1 and A9, and I'm just a few kilometres short of completing A5, A7 and A8.

Italy is the real target, of course. I reckon I've done at least half of the total distance of the entire autostrada network.

[Andy P]

I find the idea of driving the F9 Autobahnen quite appealing

That got me thinking about how many of the F9 Autobahnen I have driven. I think it is:
A1: Lots of separate bits
A2: Almost all
A3: Not very much
A4: Almost all
A5: All
A6: Most
A7: Not very much
A8: Almost all
A9: About half

I must think about completing the list, but many of the missing bits are the last parts before the frontier, so it would need to be combined with visits to other countries - unlike some I wouldn't drive a road just for the sake of it.

My record for the F9 motorways in the UK is somewhat more complete, but I lived there a lot longer than I've been in Germany.

[firefly]

From looking at Google, it seems I have two obvious options south of the junction between Autobahnen 5 and 7 west of Bad Hersfeld. Either I take the 5 from Freiburg via Frankfurt, or I take the 81 via Stuttgart and pick up the 7 at Würzburg. North of the 5/7 junction it seems most sensible to follow the 7 all the way to Kiel.

You may avoid Frankfurt/M by chosing the A 81 route. But then you will go past Stuttgart which is likewise prone to congestions. I would chose the A 5. It is the shortest route to begin with and the busiest stretches of this route are accompanied by several high-capacity roads which provide reasonable alternatives if one is needed.

[roadtester]

From looking at Google, it seems I have two obvious options south of the junction between Autobahnen 5 and 7 west of Bad Hersfeld. Either I take the 5 from Freiburg via Frankfurt, or I take the 81 via Stuttgart and pick up the 7 at Würzburg. North of the 5/7 junction it seems most sensible to follow the 7 all the way to Kiel.

I've now completed my German drive - I ticked off the entire A2 west to east and was then going to do the entire length of the A9. However the A9 at the Berlin end was closed because of a forest fire near Potsdam and that spoilt the prospect of doing a through run so I decided to find a different route south. I took the A71 through Thuringia - this has some spectacular engineering, including an 8km tunnel - and then took the A81 the rest of the way south. I did the disjointed fragments of the A98 before heading across to Basel and taking the A5 as far north as Karlsruhe. From there I struck out west across country to pick up the isolated western section of the A8 between Pirmasens and Schengen mentioned by Andy P.

Then, an overnight and a cheap fill-up in Luxembourg, and home.

In terms of FosseWay's original question, the A81 was free-flowing (although I did it on a Sunday so no truck traffic) but I suspect firefly is right that Stuttgart could be jam-prone.

The A5 was fairly good going north although there were several miles of jams just south of Karlsruhe where I turned off. This seemed to be roadworks related and there did not seem to be a southbound counterpart to the northbound jam.

[Bryn666]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbergtunnel

A81 at Stuttgart - this is impressive. The old tunnel was completely bypassed by one to modern standards.

[roadtester]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbergtunnel

A81 at Stuttgart - this is impressive. The old tunnel was completely bypassed by one to modern standards.

Thanks - really interesting.

I would normally have read up more about the A81 before I went that way but I only decided to do it at the last minute.

According to the article, the old tunnels were used for war production with forced labour and the tunnels had to be reinstated one at a time over several years after being blown up. Apparently the tunnel was only D2M with huge traffic flows and a 6 per cent gradient on the approach. No wonder something else was needed.

There’s a reference to the old tunnels appearing in the opening sequence of a 1960s German tv series about a haulage firm.

I think it’s the tunnel that can be seen about 35 seconds in here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i7KrrRsgc ... zJ&index=2

[FosseWay]

Thanks for the further input. I will check both routes on Google Maps before setting off, but in the absence of clearly different congestion levels I think the A81 route looks more interesting (not least that tunnel that Bryn posted - the course of the old road plus the memorial look worth investigating).