[F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

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[F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

http://www.met.grandlyon.com/le-declass ... ute-a6-a7/

The main autoroutes crossing the centre of Lyon, built in stages between 1959/73 have been declassified in anticipation of the completion of the A44 western bypass of Lyon. This will sort of form a system of full and partial loops in conjunction with the A42/A432, A46, and the inner N383.

Once the A44 is complete the plan is to convert most of the A6/A7 to an urban boulevard.
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by M4Simon »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 07:15 http://www.met.grandlyon.com/le-declass ... ute-a6-a7/

The main autoroutes crossing the centre of Lyon, built in stages between 1959/73 have been declassified in anticipation of the completion of the A44 western bypass of Lyon. This will sort of form a system of full and partial loops in conjunction with the A42/A432, A46, and the inner N383.

Once the A44 is complete the plan is to convert most of the A6/A7 to an urban boulevard.
I've driven this, and if I recall correctly, much of the road is in cutting or tunnel? Will be interesting to see how it is transformed to an urban boulevard.

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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

I would suspect the first thing to go would be the 70s carbuncle that is Perrache.

The A6 is mostly on structures or in tunnels or open cuts so I can't see that being done first but much of the A7 is alongside the Rhone so probably just needs some removal of the central barrier and reconfiguration of the existing space.

The Fourviere Tunnel and existing A6 from the TEO seem unlikely to convert.
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by M4Simon »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 20:55 I would suspect the first thing to go would be the 70s carbuncle that is Perrache.

The A6 is mostly on structures or in tunnels or open cuts so I can't see that being done first but much of the A7 is alongside the Rhone so probably just needs some removal of the central barrier and reconfiguration of the existing space.

The Fourviere Tunnel and existing A6 from the TEO seem unlikely to convert.
A quick check of the map suggests that while I definitely used the A6, I missed the A7 running alongside the river. The latter looks like it could be converted, but the A6 is largely how I remember it.

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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

M4Simon wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 21:43
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 20:55 I would suspect the first thing to go would be the 70s carbuncle that is Perrache.

The A6 is mostly on structures or in tunnels or open cuts so I can't see that being done first but much of the A7 is alongside the Rhone so probably just needs some removal of the central barrier and reconfiguration of the existing space.

The Fourviere Tunnel and existing A6 from the TEO seem unlikely to convert.
A quick check of the map suggests that while I definitely used the A6, I missed the A7 running alongside the river. The latter looks like it could be converted, but the A6 is largely how I remember it.
I've driven it too. I remember the A6 heading underground towards the city centre, and emerging right next to the river. The area where it turns quite sharply to the right and becomes the A7 is tight and surprisingly bumpy (think of that boggy bit of M62 just east of the M6!). The A7 is completely above ground, and hugs the river quite closely. It would surely make a nice boulevard.

I've also driven part of the D383, to get to the A43. It was so nondescript that I can't think of anything to say about it!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

From what I can very crudely translate (and what Google did the rest on), it seems that the project to convert the A7 would happen first; but finance is the problem. It's unlikely to be before 2030 at this rate. What I'm curious as to know is if the A6/A7 are still legally autoroutes there or if they're now just departmentale voies express.

It also seems reliant on the construction of the western ring road, either the A44 (arguably dead), or the "Ring of Science", which would close the loop formed by the ex-N383 (now D383) Bd Laurent Bonnevay, and TEO. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulevard ... ue_de_Lyon has some info. SARA has lots more.
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

I notice that Lyon now has one of those pollution restriction schemes called Crit'Air where certain classes of vehicles are banned from the Lyon area on days where pollution is high.

A similar scheme ran in nearby Grenoble which created a 50 mile diversion for myself last autumn as I did not have the relevant document!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 21:41 I notice that Lyon now has one of those pollution restriction schemes called Crit'Air where certain classes of vehicles are banned from the Lyon area on days where pollution is high.
:scratchchin: ... I'm supposed to be taking one of my Euro 3 diesels there this summer.

Still, I got away with driving a hired Fiat Panda diesel around Turin on a day when the signage appeared to suggest* that diesels were banned from the city centre.

*I say "appeared to suggest" because reading Italian on a VMS while driving on the wrong side of the road around one of Italy's busiest cities is not the easiest of tasks!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 19:11
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 21:41 I notice that Lyon now has one of those pollution restriction schemes called Crit'Air where certain classes of vehicles are banned from the Lyon area on days where pollution is high.
:scratchchin: ... I'm supposed to be taking one of my Euro 3 diesels there this summer.

Still, I got away with driving a hired Fiat Panda diesel around Turin on a day when the signage appeared to suggest* that diesels were banned from the city centre.

*I say "appeared to suggest" because reading Italian on a VMS while driving on the wrong side of the road around one of Italy's busiest cities is not the easiest of tasks!
You eejit, everyone knows the correct car for Turin is a Mini Cooper S... :wink:
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 09:59
Owain wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 19:11... I got away with driving a hired Fiat Panda diesel around Turin on a day when the signage appeared to suggest* that diesels were banned from the city centre.

*I say "appeared to suggest" because reading Italian on a VMS while driving on the wrong side of the road around one of Italy's busiest cities is not the easiest of tasks!
You eejit, everyone knows the correct car for Turin is a Mini Cooper S... :wink:
Oh yes, of course! How could I have made that mistake? :laugh:
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

Back to the OP, the A89 has now been completed, so there is a direct motorway (well, a short bit is the N89 near Bordeaux but it's still voie express) connection right across the middle of France now. This plugs into the A6 north of Limonest, where traffic is apparently going to be advised to go via the newly opened A466 (David Craig Number!) which connects to the A46 eastern bypass of Lyon. This is a longer journey and I believe subject to tolls, but it seems this is now to be the transit route for HGVs.

The French are happy building rural roads but determined to take traffic out of urban areas. It's a model I wish we'd follow.
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From the SABRE Wiki: David Craig Number :

David Craig Numbers' are those roads having a number that 'connects' the roads they start and end on. They are named after internet author David Craig, who suggested on his website about the A361 that three and four digit road numbers were created on this basis.

The assertion was incorrect, but there are a small number of such routes in the country:

Many of the David Craig Numbers have come into existence through later planning, very few of these can be considered to be 'pure'

... Read More
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 17:11 Back to the OP, the A89 has now been completed, so there is a direct motorway (well, a short bit is the N89 near Bordeaux but it's still voie express) connection right across the middle of France now.
I know the road replaces the N89, and that A routes in France quite often take the number of the N route they replace, but I'm a bit puzzled as to why the whole route from Bordeaux to Lyon takes the 89 number; especially as it TOTSOs twice north of Clermont Ferrand, and takes over a lengthy section of A71, before TOTSOing again further east after taking over a lengthy section of A72.

I think an A7x number would have made more sense east of Clermont, not least because the A71 rather pointlessly becomes the A75 at the same place. Either A73 or A74 would have worked.
This plugs into the A6 north of Limonest, where traffic is apparently going to be advised to go via the newly opened A466 (David Craig Number!) which connects to the A46 eastern bypass of Lyon. This is a longer journey and I believe subject to tolls, but it seems this is now to be the transit route for HGVs.
I think it depends where you're taking your HGV. The last toll booth on the A6 is at Bordelan, quite a distance north of Lyon, and north of both the A46 and A466. I don't think there are any tolls before the A46 and A432 meet the A42, meaning that you should be able to reach the A42 from the terminus of the A89 without being tolled. The first toll on the A42 appears to be out at Pont d'Ain. However, if you are going further round (towards Italy, perhaps!), there is a toll plaza on the A432 just south of the A42 interchange, and another just before you meet the A43.

So the A46 does not appear to be tolled, meaning you could probably drive your HGV into the centre of Lyon using that route, and you could also use it to head towards Geneva and Mont Blanc without being tolled until you have passed Lyon, but you would be tolled if you are heading for the A43 and Grenoble or the Frejus, because you would probably use the A432 (does this count as a 'David Craig' number, being that it connects A43 and A42?).

As an aside, a car journey from Lyon to Bordeaux using the new A89 would cost €100 in tolls.
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 17:11The French are happy building rural roads but determined to take traffic out of urban areas. It's a model I wish we'd follow.
I couldn't agree more!
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From the SABRE Wiki: David Craig Number :

David Craig Numbers' are those roads having a number that 'connects' the roads they start and end on. They are named after internet author David Craig, who suggested on his website about the A361 that three and four digit road numbers were created on this basis.

The assertion was incorrect, but there are a small number of such routes in the country:

Many of the David Craig Numbers have come into existence through later planning, very few of these can be considered to be 'pure'

... Read More
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

I think the decision to number the whole thing as A89 came later, as it's not a radial from Paris it is subject to the sector numbering; but the 8x series seems to be all over the place over the west coast.

You may have noticed there is a missing section of the road - it multiplexes with the A20 via two unfinished junctions. There was to be a separate route here but the mountains are difficult to cross due to geological faults so they're widening the A20 instead.

It then of course multiplexes with the A71 down to Clermont before taking over the former A72.

The A74 was a provisional number for a Lyon radial but I think it was separate to the A89.

Thanks for the clarification about tolls - the last time I was in SE France was 1992 and we went down to Marseille on motorail. We stayed near St Raphael. I have some hazy memories of lots of tunnels (we only ventured as far as Ventimiglia though where Italy was concerned, there's a picture of our E reg Cavalier parked up at the end of the N7 in Menton.

Need a French holiday again...
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

Owain wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 20:15As an aside, a car journey from Lyon to Bordeaux using the new A89 would cost €100 in tolls.
Correction: driving the A89 in its entirety would cost €46.90 in tolls.

The €100 figure includes the www.autoroutes.fr estimated fuel cost as well as the tolls!
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 20:28 I think the decision to number the whole thing as A89 came later, as it's not a radial from Paris it is subject to the sector numbering; but the 8x series seems to be all over the place over the west coast.

You may have noticed there is a missing section of the road - it multiplexes with the A20 via two unfinished junctions. There was to be a separate route here but the mountains are difficult to cross due to geological faults so they're widening the A20 instead.
I had noticed the multiplex, and the awkward unfinished junctions, but I assumed that the plan was simply to use them to make more flowing connections to the A20 multiplex rather than build a continuous new motorway to run separately!
Bryn wrote:Thanks for the clarification about tolls - the last time I was in SE France was 1992 and we went down to Marseille on motorail. We stayed near St Raphael. I have some hazy memories of lots of tunnels (we only ventured as far as Ventimiglia though where Italy was concerned, there's a picture of our E reg Cavalier parked up at the end of the N7 in Menton.
No problem - it's useful for me to know, because I am staying in Lyon for a couple of nights before entering Italy over the Mont Cenis Pass this summer. I'm hoping to use a few creative detours to complete the A40, A42 and A43, of which I am just missing short sections at each of their western ends. I might also detour via A48, just to bag that one too!

There is still a lovely old sign showing the N7 number immediately after you cross the border from Italy. I noticed it when I drove past last it last summer (as my blue Rover left Italy for the seventh and final time :cry: ).
Bryn wrote:Need a French holiday again...
France is awesome! :thumbsup:
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Bryn666 »

The very end of the A48 into Grenoble is now N448 I think having been renumbered to allow for a bus lane. Transit from the A48 to A41 is now via the Rocade Sud.

I don't think the A51 between Grenoble and Sisteron will be finished any time soon. The top end should just be the A48 if so. Yet how appropriate is it that the biggest town along this gap is... Gap!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Owain »

I think part of the reason that I want to drive both the French A48 and the French A466 is that the two nearest UK A-roads to me when I was a boy were the A48 and the A466!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

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Owain wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 18:00 I think part of the reason that I want to drive both the French A48 and the French A466 is that the two nearest UK A-roads to me when I was a boy were the A48 and the A466!
Probably a marked contrast too... blast those Europeans!
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

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Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 21:41 I notice that Lyon now has one of those pollution restriction schemes called Crit'Air where certain classes of vehicles are banned from the Lyon area on days where pollution is high.

A similar scheme ran in nearby Grenoble which created a 50 mile diversion for myself last autumn as I did not have the relevant document!
Just got my Crit'Air as I am off to The Alps for the Tour in 10 days and will be going through Grenoble and Lyon. Cost me 4.27 euros on line to get a sticker and paperwork, just had to fill a form in and scan in my V5. All the details are on the RAC driving in France website
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by A303Chris »

Planning to drive the A6/A7 through Lyon in two weeks on the way back from Roums. Always wanted to drive it since I was a teenager and went down to the MeD on a coach as a 18 year old in 1987
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Re: [F] A6/A7 downgraded in Lyon

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

A303Chris wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:21
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 21:41 I notice that Lyon now has one of those pollution restriction schemes called Crit'Air where certain classes of vehicles are banned from the Lyon area on days where pollution is high.

A similar scheme ran in nearby Grenoble which created a 50 mile diversion for myself last autumn as I did not have the relevant document!
Just got my Crit'Air as I am off to The Alps for the Tour in 10 days and will be going through Grenoble and Lyon. Cost me 4.27 euros on line to get a sticker and paperwork, just had to fill a form in and scan in my V5. All the details are on the RAC driving in France website
That's cheap and will be helpful particularly as routes avoiding Grenoble take a long diversion.
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