[F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by sydneynick »

Undivided roads (whether N or D) had a limit of 90 km/h and that us now 80 km/h. Divided roads that are not an autoroute have a limit of 110 km/h when fine or 100 km/h when raining.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by trigpoint »

sydneynick wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 00:47 Undivided roads (whether N or D) had a limit of 90 km/h and that us now 80 km/h. Divided roads that are not an autoroute have a limit of 110 km/h when fine or 100 km/h when raining.
Three lane roads are now signed as 90 km/h in the direction with two lanes.

The other single lane, with overtaking prohibited is 80 km/h.

The French often have a different speed limit in each direction on single carriageways, something we never have in the UK?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Truvelo »

I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Owain »

Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
Would it be legal to perform a u-turn on a French S2+1, considering that they always (in my experience) seem to have a solid white line (no overtaking!) separating the traffic flowing in opposite directions?

I've never knowingly driven on a single-carriageway road with different limits in each direction ... although I don't remember ever performing a u-turn in France* either, so I guess I could have done without noticing!

*I have, however, performed countless u-turns in Italy, where doing so suddenly and at high speed is a badge of honour.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Bryn666 »

trigpoint wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:00
sydneynick wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 00:47 Undivided roads (whether N or D) had a limit of 90 km/h and that us now 80 km/h. Divided roads that are not an autoroute have a limit of 110 km/h when fine or 100 km/h when raining.
Three lane roads are now signed as 90 km/h in the direction with two lanes.

The other single lane, with overtaking prohibited is 80 km/h.

The French often have a different speed limit in each direction on single carriageways, something we never have in the UK?
My understanding was this was at the discretion of the departments, so one area may do it and the adjoining one not.

French speed limits tend to be applied differently to ours, for a kick off I believe the presence of the sign alone makes the limit exist - I don't think legal orders are used as they are here.

If in doubt drive at 80km/h.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by sydneynick »

Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
U-turns are illegal in France.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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Owain wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 23:12
Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
Would it be legal to perform a u-turn on a French S2+1, considering that they always (in my experience) seem to have a solid white line (no overtaking!) separating the traffic flowing in opposite directions?

I've never knowingly driven on a single-carriageway road with different limits in each direction ... although I don't remember ever performing a u-turn in France* either, so I guess I could have done without noticing!

*I have, however, performed countless u-turns in Italy, where doing so suddenly and at high speed is a badge of honour.
This https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.68924 ... 312!8i6656 from the N11 in Luxembourg shows the start of a 110 km/h limit. The traffic in the opposite direction are subject to a 90 km/h limit.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Owain »

exiled wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 19:54
Owain wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 23:12
Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
Would it be legal to perform a u-turn on a French S2+1, considering that they always (in my experience) seem to have a solid white line (no overtaking!) separating the traffic flowing in opposite directions?

I've never knowingly driven on a single-carriageway road with different limits in each direction ... although I don't remember ever performing a u-turn in France* either, so I guess I could have done without noticing!

*I have, however, performed countless u-turns in Italy, where doing so suddenly and at high speed is a badge of honour.
This https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.68924 ... 312!8i6656 from the N11 in Luxembourg shows the start of a 110 km/h limit. The traffic in the opposite direction are subject to a 90 km/h limit.
Now that you mention it, I've driven the N7 in Luxembourg. There are several stretches of S2+1 where the limit increases to 110 for the purpose of overtaking, but the traffic heading in the opposite direction (without the overtaking lane) is restricted to 90.

So I have driven on such roads ... I guess I'd never really thought about it! :facepalm:
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by fras »

I believe Mr Macron is having second thoughts about the blanket 80kph limit after his recent tour of France.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by jimboLL »

I was in France on the day this went live.

Didn't stop some idiot in an Iveco pickup doing 120 down a narrow D-road and smashing my wing mirror.

And due to the way modern manufacturing works, I have to buy a whole unit for £300 instead of just a glass and a cowl, despite the fact that the motors and heaters all survived the knock.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by FosseWay »

Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
That is a very British-centric view of the issue, though. In the UK we place a great deal of weight on whether there are roundels and how frequently they occur. In other jurisdictions, the nature of the road is enough to establish the limit, which may also be backed up by signage. If it is generally established that the two-lane side of S2+1s has a limit of 90 and the single lane is 80, there is no real reason for confusion.

Unequal limits on each side of S2s should be a possibility in the UK, IMO. More and more 30 limits are extended beyond the urban area to which they apply as a way of improving compliance at the point where it is genuinely needed - i.e. giving people a deceleration distance within the 30 limit rather than expecting them already to have slowed to 30 by the time they pass the roundel. I can see the sense of that, but it's hardly necessary to restrict traffic leaving the built-up area in the same way.

And while there is much bleating in general about limits being "unclear" if people do U-turns or turn out of private property or whatever, there is in reality no sensible risk of either prosecution or people unintentionally going at dangerously fast speeds. If you are heading into the town and do a U-turn in the stretch between the point where incoming traffic gets 30 and outgoing gets NSL, the worst that happens is that you continue at 30 until you realise there are neither street lights nor repeaters, or until you see an NSL repeater. If the opposite applies and you've already passed the NSL in the outward direction but it's still 30 on the other side of the road, again you will have a maximum of 185 m until you get either a street light or a repeater. And during most of that 185 m you will be accelerating from zero having just turned. As with most issues around "unclear" speed limit signage, it's a storm in a teacup.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Vierwielen »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:28
Truvelo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 15:46 I can't see how different limits in each direction on a single carriageway can be enforced. If you did a u-turn without passing any signs then the last speed limit roundel you passed may be higher than the limit in the direction you are now travelling.
That is a very British-centric view of the issue, though. In the UK we place a great deal of weight on whether there are roundels and how frequently they occur. In other jurisdictions, the nature of the road is enough to establish the limit, which may also be backed up by signage. If it is generally established that the two-lane side of S2+1s has a limit of 90 and the single lane is 80, there is no real reason for confusion.

Unequal limits on each side of S2s should be a possibility in the UK, IMO. More and more 30 limits are extended beyond the urban area to which they apply as a way of improving compliance at the point where it is genuinely needed - i.e. giving people a deceleration distance within the 30 limit rather than expecting them already to have slowed to 30 by the time they pass the roundel. I can see the sense of that, but it's hardly necessary to restrict traffic leaving the built-up area in the same way.

And while there is much bleating in general about limits being "unclear" if people do U-turns or turn out of private property or whatever, there is in reality no sensible risk of either prosecution or people unintentionally going at dangerously fast speeds. If you are heading into the town and do a U-turn in the stretch between the point where incoming traffic gets 30 and outgoing gets NSL, the worst that happens is that you continue at 30 until you realise there are neither street lights nor repeaters, or until you see an NSL repeater. If the opposite applies and you've already passed the NSL in the outward direction but it's still 30 on the other side of the road, again you will have a maximum of 185 m until you get either a street light or a repeater. And during most of that 185 m you will be accelerating from zero having just turned. As with most issues around "unclear" speed limit signage, it's a storm in a teacup.
Many years ago, I remember seeing a ridiculous situation in South Africa. The speed limit in urban areas was 60 km/h while a 60 km/h minimum speed limit applied to freeways. As one left Pretoria travelling southwards, an urban road fed straight into a freeway which meant, theoretically, that one had to has to cross-over point at exactly 60 km/h. I must add however that as far as I know, nobody was ever prosecuted for not travelling at at 60 km/h.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Berk »

That wouldn’t really be an issue in Britain because most people join slowly anyway.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Vierwielen »

Berk wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 23:11 That wouldn’t really be an issue in Britain because most people join slowly anyway.
It was not a matter of joining the freeway - you were driving along a D2 urban road with a 60 km/h maximum speed limit which suddenly became a D2 freeway with a minimum 60 km/h speed limit. There were not junctions or anything of that sort.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Berk »

That would be similar to where a road like the A27 suddenly goes from 30/40 to NSL.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Bryn666 »

Berk wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 19:34 That would be similar to where a road like the A27 suddenly goes from 30/40 to NSL.
No. The maximum limit is 60km/h and then immediately becomes a minimum limit of 60km/h with the maximum being the freeway speed limit of presumably 120.

So you have to be doing exactly 60km/h as you draw the level with the signs to be compliant.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Berk »

That’s what I meant to say. Though why would a driver be doing, say 40 k’s in a 60 limit?? 🤨
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Bryn666 »

Berk wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 19:33 That’s what I meant to say. Though why would a driver be doing, say 40 k’s in a 60 limit?? 🤨
Because they're allowed to?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 11:41
Berk wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 19:33 That’s what I meant to say. Though why would a driver be doing, say 40 k’s in a 60 limit?? 🤨
Because they're allowed to?
Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean that you *should* do it. (That applies to going fast as well as slow, BTW).
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Berk »

Unless it’s a suburban street with lots of crossings (and a matching limit), I imagine a driver who insisted on driving at 40 k’s would be beeped and hooted at... 🤨
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