[F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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RichardA35
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[F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by RichardA35 »

Noted the following from one of my subscribed feeds this morning.80 kph limit passes into law on 1st July
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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They must have been listening to East Cheshire CoCo.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by fras »

What is a "secondary route" is it all single carriageway roads or is there another definition ?

The limit in France was previously 90kph on single carriageway roads (just over 55 mph) rather than the more common 100kph in Europe. I must say I don't feel particularly at risk in Germany with their 100 kph limit but then their roads don't have high hedges either side so one can see on-coming traffic a long way away. There are very few blind corners like we have, and "ditches with tarmac in the bottom" like we have are non-existent.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by FosseWay »

fras wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 23:04 What is a "secondary route" is it all single carriageway roads or is there another definition ?
The article RichardA35 linked to says:
Cette limitation de vitesse s’appliquera sur les routes secondaires à double sens sans séparateur central (muret, glissière), soit 40 % du réseau routier français.
I read that as being roads that are secondary and S2, and not therefore either all S2 roads or all secondary roads. But the simple insertion of a comma between "secondaires" and "à" would cause me to interpret it as being applicable to all secondary roads, which are defined as being S2. We are therefore at the mercy of the journalist's mastery of clear, unambiguous language, which cannot be taken for granted.

But the bit at the end of the sentence above - "i.e. 40% of the French road network" - would seem to tell against this measure applying to all S2s that aren't already limited to less than 80. That would surely amount to a great deal more than 40% of the network. If, beyond urban and otherwise lower-limited roads, it excludes secondary roads that are better than S2 and primary roads that are S2, then perhaps the 40% figure makes more sense. But I'm still not finding a clear explanation of what constitutes a "route secondaire" - is it everything other than routes nationales and autoroutes? Or are some RN now in local hands, similar to detrunking in the UK?
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c2R
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 09:39 Or are some RN now in local hands, similar to detrunking in the UK?

Yes, but these have been given D classifications; e.g. the N9 has become things like D900 in some departments, although one has gone for the rather horrible D-N9
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Chris Bertram »

At least with French road numbering you get a good idea of who is responsible for the road:

A and N - Autoroutes and Routes Nationales - the government
D - Routes Départementales - the préfecture of the département
C - Routes Communales - the local commune
V - Routes vicinales - very minor roads, the village council.

C and V routes are not always shown on signs. D routes can vary from grade-separated dual carriageways to single-track roads with or without passing opportunities. A number is no guarantee of quality. D1 in any given département may be a major route linking important towns, or it may be a winding country lane going nowhere in particular. Former N roads now under départemental control often have numbers in the 300, 600, 900 or 1000 range, with their former N number now incorporated into the new number.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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The word "secondaire" still seems a strangely ambiguous formulation given that French road classification is according to who maintains the road, and not its importance (or size, quality etc.). Is "secondaire" part of a binary division in which "routes primaires" are autoroutes and routes nationales, and "secondaires" are everything else? Or can you get "routes tertiaires" and so on as well? So much isn't answered, either in that article, on French Wikipedia or anywhere else I've looked (though I admit I haven't dug out the original statutory instrument-equivalent).

However, in an article from January this year we read:
Le coût des changements de panneaux, estimé entre 5 et 10 millions d'euros, sera pris en charge par l'État.
(The cost of changing signage, estimated at between 5 and 10 million euros, will be borne by the State [i.e. the central government, I presume].)

It's ages since I drove in France, and I can't remember how they sign their NSL-equivalent - whether you're just supposed to know from other info (as with the UK) or whether limits are signed on all rural roads, or at least all relatively major ones where high speeds are physically possible, from time to time, as in Sweden. But it sounds like a fair number of signs will need to be changed, so the issue of which categories of road this applies to may not be pressing if you get a clear numerical sign every time.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by trigpoint »

FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 It's ages since I drove in France, and I can't remember how they sign their NSL-equivalent - whether you're just supposed to know from other info (as with the UK) or whether limits are signed on all rural roads, or at least all relatively major ones where high speeds are physically possible, from time to time, as in Sweden.
In most cases it is the standard line through the placename, there are generally no specific limit signs.

Wonder how many tourists will be caught out this summer.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by nowster »

Occasionally you'll see a "Rappel 90" sign. (ie. Reminder 90km/h)
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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If there aren't many physical 90 signs, why is it going to cost 10 million euros to replace them? :?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:00 If there aren't many physical 90 signs, why is it going to cost 10 million euros to replace them? :?
Because there are actually lots when you consider the total size of the entire single carriageway network which I believe it applies to. They regularly appear after junctions with the priority road diamond for example, and then there's every example of a RAPPEL sign.

Also don't forget the fatality rates on French S2s are abysmal. Far worse than ours.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:25
FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:00 If there aren't many physical 90 signs, why is it going to cost 10 million euros to replace them? :?
Because there are actually lots when you consider the total size of the entire single carriageway network which I believe it applies to. They regularly appear after junctions with the priority road diamond for example, and then there's every example of a RAPPEL sign.

Also don't forget the fatality rates on French S2s are abysmal. Far worse than ours.
So is the idea that they continue to have collisions, but just do so slightly slower?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Owain »

Indeed, this cannot apply to all D roads. In recent years, France has opened quite a few high-quality dual carriageways which have D numbers combined with a 110km/h limit. See, for example, the D610 Troyes ring road, and the D438, which has effectively replaced the old N19 to the west of Belfort.

Even on the long, straight S2 sections of roads like the D619, an 80km/h limit will seem dreadfully slow, considering that 90km/h was already painful enough! Presumably they're trying to discourage people like me from executing beautiful sling-shot moves on slower cars on curves like this, where there really ought not to be a solid line down the middle!
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Fenlander »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:39So is the idea that they continue to have collisions, but just do so slightly slower?
There's a sign on the A1101 outside Wisbech that essentially says that too, "High speed collisions kill" followed by "Drive slower", why not "Don't collide"?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:39
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:25
FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:00 If there aren't many physical 90 signs, why is it going to cost 10 million euros to replace them? :?
Because there are actually lots when you consider the total size of the entire single carriageway network which I believe it applies to. They regularly appear after junctions with the priority road diamond for example, and then there's every example of a RAPPEL sign.

Also don't forget the fatality rates on French S2s are abysmal. Far worse than ours.
So is the idea that they continue to have collisions, but just do so slightly slower?
Or not. It depends on whether the speed-related accidents are caused by people going too fast but within/just above the limit, in which case lowering the limit may reduce e.g. the number of people who drive off the road or have head-ons while overtaking, or whether they are disproportionately caused by people driving way over the existing limit. Changing the limit will have little effect on these; changing the penalty might do, especially if they faced long periods without a licence.

I've no idea whether the French government has undertaken the kind of information-gathering exercise that I've previously advocated when people have posted about LA consultations on speed limit reductions in the UK. What are the principal causes of accidents? Is there international precedent for expecting rates to fall if you do X? Is excessive speed a problem in itself (i.e. people going too fast for the conditions, regardless of the limit)? Would it help to enforce the existing limit better? Engineering solutions? Or have they just fallen into the Swedish trap of saying "speed is bad", "speed is easily measurable", "lower speed must equal better"?
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

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FosseWay wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 14:19
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:39
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 13:25 Also don't forget the fatality rates on French S2s are abysmal. Far worse than ours.
So is the idea that they continue to have collisions, but just do so slightly slower?
Or not. It depends on whether the speed-related accidents are caused by people going too fast but within/just above the limit, in which case lowering the limit may reduce e.g. the number of people who drive off the road or have head-ons while overtaking, or whether they are disproportionately caused by people driving way over the existing limit. Changing the limit will have little effect on these; changing the penalty might do, especially if they faced long periods without a licence.

I've no idea whether the French government has undertaken the kind of information-gathering exercise that I've previously advocated when people have posted about LA consultations on speed limit reductions in the UK. What are the principal causes of accidents? Is there international precedent for expecting rates to fall if you do X? Is excessive speed a problem in itself (i.e. people going too fast for the conditions, regardless of the limit)? Would it help to enforce the existing limit better? Engineering solutions? Or have they just fallen into the Swedish trap of saying "speed is bad", "speed is easily measurable", "lower speed must equal better"?
In my experience, the French drive far more slowly now than I remember them doing when my dad drove us around France on family holidays during the '80s and '90s. Most of them seem to stick to the boring 90km/h, and - perhaps most surprisingly of all - the 50km/h limit in urban areas.

I suspect that the real cause of deaths is not speed, but the manner in which long, straight roads without hedges encourage the enthusiastic driver to make progress. Years ago I Sabre-cited this piece of road as by far the most terrifying and dangerous on which I have ever driven. In my view, it is far more dangerous than roads like this, because the former provides the enthusiastic/competitive/impatient driver to overtake and to do so at speed, whereas nobody would dream of overtaking on the latter.

On that stretch between Villasor and Villacidro, which is dead straight for (IIRC) 14 km and actually quite narrow, I have seen half a dozen cars all queued up on the wrong side of the road during rush hour, overtaking a dozen or so vehicles travelling more slowly on the right side. Some moves might have lasted for a whole kilometre, while others were simply playing leap-frog in the gaps between oncoming traffic.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Bryn666 »

The then N149, it's now bypassed by an expressway, between Parthenay and Cholet had markers showing a black human silhouette with a red line through it; each one represented a fatality.

In 2005 there must have been about 16 on that length. Overtaking and running out of talent at high speed is a huge problem in France.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by trigpoint »

Owain wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 14:47 In my experience, the French drive far more slowly now than I remember them doing when my dad drove us around France on family holidays during the '80s and '90s. Most of them seem to stick to the boring 90km/h, and - perhaps most surprisingly of all - the 50km/h limit in urban areas.
I remember when I first drove in France the urban limit was 60km/h.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Bryn666 »

trigpoint wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:07
Owain wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 14:47 In my experience, the French drive far more slowly now than I remember them doing when my dad drove us around France on family holidays during the '80s and '90s. Most of them seem to stick to the boring 90km/h, and - perhaps most surprisingly of all - the 50km/h limit in urban areas.
I remember when I first drove in France the urban limit was 60km/h.
That lasted for a surprisingly long time. 60 km/h isn't used at all now, it's 30, 50, 70, 90, 110, 130.
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Re: [F] 80kph limit passes into law for secondary routes

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:22
trigpoint wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 19:07
Owain wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 14:47 In my experience, the French drive far more slowly now than I remember them doing when my dad drove us around France on family holidays during the '80s and '90s. Most of them seem to stick to the boring 90km/h, and - perhaps most surprisingly of all - the 50km/h limit in urban areas.
I remember when I first drove in France the urban limit was 60km/h.
That lasted for a surprisingly long time. 60 km/h isn't used at all now, it's 30, 50, 70, 90, 110, 130.

Despite having driven to Italy seven times, and having flown there and hired cars even more frequently than that, I have to admit that I don't actually know what the national speed limit is.

I know that it was once 100km/h. I remember being told about fifteen years ago that it had been changed to 90km/h 'in Sardinia', although I am not sure if that change applied only to Sardinia or if it applied to the whole of Italy.

Not that speed limits are relevant in Italy ... :D
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