Germany: route advice

[scynthius726]

Roadtester, did you complete your German travels in your own electric vehicle?

[roadtester]

Roadtester, did you complete your German travels in your own electric vehicle?

Ha ha - no!

I did it in my baby BMW diesel which has a range of 700 plus miles and can do 66mpg at motorway speeds.

Could have done it fairly easily in a Tesla, though, or one the latest big battery cars like the Kona.

[Owain]

Roadtester, did you complete your German travels in your own electric vehicle?

I thought it was common knowledge that all Renaults spontaneously break down the moment they cross the Rhine!

[roadtester]

Roadtester, did you complete your German travels in your own electric vehicle?

I thought it was common knowledge that all Renaults spontaneously break down the moment they cross the Rhine!

I don't think mine will get that far to test the theory but it's been reliable so far!

[FosseWay]

Well, I'm back!

Just got home after the overnight ferry from Kiel (and got breathalysed for the third time in my life as I passed through Swedish customs).

In the end I took the A81 option from Donaueschingen to Würzburg and then the A7/A215 to Kiel (with a diversion to Celle where I stayed Saturday night). I had intended to stop off and look at the old tunnel and concentration camp memorial referred to upthread, but it was belting down with rain just then so I didn't.

The A81 was a delight to drive. Very little traffic apart from immediately around Stuttgart, and very few roadworks. At times I could see no other vehicles in front or behind, and just sat with the needle on 150 km/h. (Any faster and the fuel consumption went to pot and strange vibrations occurred.) Occasionally someone would pass at warp speed and disappear ahead of me - some of them were going well over 200. All the stuff you hear about Germans having better lane discipline and awareness of what's going on behind them is entirely true. Sometimes you can't avoid getting in someone's way in the outside lane if you're passing something at 130 and a nutcase comes up behind you who you couldn't even see when you started the manoeuvre. But in most of these cases the nutcase in question just eased off and did not try to enter my boot (except for some HGVs, see below).

The A7 north of Kassel was a shambles, however. Enormous lengths of roadworks with 80 km/h limits punctuated by short periods of derestriction where all the aforementioned bats from hell immediately floored it. I was lucky, though, in that there was never any significant congestion apart from through and around the Elbe tunnel at Hamburg.

The UK does motorway roadworks much better than the Germans. Both have similar speed limits but the Germans don't enforce theirs (at least no more than they enforce limits in general) so you get much more variation in speed and therefore bunching and concertina effects. HGVs are not allowed to overtake in roadworks and some of them try to barge you out of the way if you're not doing 90 (which is more like 100 on my speedo, which I felt uncomfortable with). Part of that discomfort stems from the VERY narrow lanes - I'm sure that even where narrow lanes are in use on British motorways, they're not *that* narrow. Or perhaps it's just that British drivers actually are doing 80 km/h there.

[SarahJ]

No, German roadworks lanes are very narrow. It's how they fit 4 lanes into a 2 lanes plus hard shoulder. Sometimes when I was in my wide 7 series, overtaking was a heart in the mouth.
What I noticed this year is them pushing is the 'keep to the left or right during jams poster'. Even saw one in English, though it was badly translated. .

It's funny, when I was doing my 155 mph run (250kph), is even gentle curves became that bit more scary, but compared to the uk where plus 100 speeds are just almost seat wetting.

[roadtester]

No, German roadworks lanes are very narrow. It's how they fit 4 lanes into a 2 lanes plus hard shoulder. Sometimes when I was in my wide 7 series, overtaking was a heart in the mouth.
What I noticed this year is them pushing is the 'keep to the left or right during jams poster'. Even saw one in English, though it was badly translated. .

It's funny, when I was doing my 155 mph run (250kph), is even gentle curves became that bit more scary, but compared to the uk where plus 100 speeds are just almost seat wetting.

When I was in Germany last month, I saw at least one roadworks that had signs indicating that vehicles shouldn't travel directly alongside each other in the narrow-laned sections.

[FosseWay]

What I noticed this year is them pushing is the 'keep to the left or right during jams poster'.

Yes, I saw many of these (though all in German). I was a bit flummoxed, since all the roads where I saw one had hard shoulders, and it is presumably preferable for emergency vehicles to use that than try to squeeze up the middle. Or am I missing something?

In the south there were also overhead banners reading something like "next stop prison" but I couldn't work out what crime was being discouraged. There seemed to be a graphic including the digits 110, but given the recommended max speed is 130 km/h, and that none of the motorways in the area were restricted at all, never mind to 110, I don't think it was a speed. Equally, 110 mg/l is a very high threshold for BAC if that's the point you get jailed in Germany.

When I was in Germany last month, I saw at least one roadworks that had signs indicating that vehicles shouldn't travel directly alongside each other in the narrow-laned sections.

I didn't see that one, but it's sound advice regardless of the lane width. It's something I avoid doing in normal countries (i.e. those like the UK and Sweden where motorway lane discipline is lax) because you never know what your man alongside is going to take it into his head to do.

Some of the really narrow lanes had 60 km/h limits, but these were not respected either. Otherwise, German drivers were reasonably good at respecting the limits, both on 120-limited Autobahns and on S2s. But the quid pro quo is that the speed limits are set sensibly - no blanket 70s in the middle of nowhere like in Sweden.

[Andy P]

All the stuff you hear about Germans having better lane discipline and awareness of what's going on behind them is entirely true.

I think this is true on a D2M, but I find middle lane hogging is quite prevalent on a D3M (though not as much as in the UK) and lane discipline can be very poor on a D4M.

No, German roadworks lanes are very narrow. It's how they fit 4 lanes into a 2 lanes plus hard shoulder. Sometimes when I was in my wide 7 series, overtaking was a heart in the mouth.

The left lane can be extremely narrow, the right lane is usually wider. I tend to stay in the right lane in these sections unless progress is too slow. But I find it noticeable that even where the lane feels very tight when I am overtaking, the cars in front and behind usually seem to have much more room. I guess part of the problem is poor perception of the edges of one's own car.

What I noticed this year is them pushing is the 'keep to the left or right during jams poster'.

Yes, I saw many of these (though all in German). I was a bit flummoxed, since all the roads where I saw one had hard shoulders, and it is presumably preferable for emergency vehicles to use that than try to squeeze up the middle. Or am I missing something?

It's the German "rescue lane" system. They want vehicles to pull to the sides (including the hard shoulder) to leave a clear lane up the middle for emergency services. I've seen it happen a couple of times, and it seems to work very well. Even on what seems to be a temporary jam, people tend to pull across a little bit.

In the south there were also overhead banners reading something like "next stop prison" but I couldn't work out what crime was being discouraged. There seemed to be a graphic including the digits 110, but given the recommended max speed is 130 km/h, and that none of the motorways in the area were restricted at all, never mind to 110, I don't think it was a speed. Equally, 110 mg/l is a very high threshold for BAC if that's the point you get jailed in Germany.

I don't recall seeing this one. I'll try and keep an eye out for it.

[FosseWay]

In the south there were also overhead banners reading something like "next stop prison" but I couldn't work out what crime was being discouraged. There seemed to be a graphic including the digits 110, but given the recommended max speed is 130 km/h, and that none of the motorways in the area were restricted at all, never mind to 110, I don't think it was a speed. Equally, 110 mg/l is a very high threshold for BAC if that's the point you get jailed in Germany.

I don't recall seeing this one. I'll try and keep an eye out for it.

They were on the A81 northbound south of Stuttgart.

[c2R]

Just got home after the overnight ferry from Kiel (and got breathalysed for the third time in my life as I passed through Swedish customs).

I've never seen that before although often thought it would be a good place for the police to nick half the drivers coming off a long crossing....

[FosseWay]

Just got home after the overnight ferry from Kiel (and got breathalysed for the third time in my life as I passed through Swedish customs).

I've never seen that before although often thought it would be a good place for the police to nick half the drivers coming off a long crossing....

Exactly - I thought it was rather a good idea. The only flaw was that there was one solitary customs official carrying out the breath tests on all the car/van/camper drivers. She was getting some stick from people stuck in the queue and I felt rather sorry for her, especially given how friendly she was when I got to the front of the queue.

[Owain]

Just got home after the overnight ferry from Kiel (and got breathalysed for the third time in my life as I passed through Swedish customs).

I've never seen that before although often thought it would be a good place for the police to nick half the drivers coming off a long crossing....

Exactly - I thought it was rather a good idea. The only flaw was that there was one solitary customs official carrying out the breath tests on all the car/van/camper drivers. She was getting some stick from people stuck in the queue and I felt rather sorry for her, especially given how friendly she was when I got to the front of the queue.

I've never had that, but more than once I had Italy's drugs police swabbing my car and asking all manner of questions about my lifestyle when disembarking from ferries in Sardinia.

I wouldn't have minded so much had they not batted an eyelid at the swarthy-looking types driving past in thirty-year-old cars with one working headlamp, bits of bodywork held together by gaffer tape, creaking under the weight of all the stuff rammed into the boot and the tower of battered old suitcases strapped to the roof rack! I'm sure I saw one carrying a mattress, as I said "No" to the ridiculous question "Do you use recreational drugs?" That seemed as dumb as asking me if I'm a terrorist.

[FosseWay]

I've never had that, but more than once I had Italy's drugs police swabbing my car and asking all manner of questions about my lifestyle when disembarking from ferries in Sardinia.

I wouldn't have minded so much had they not batted an eyelid at the swarthy-looking types driving past in thirty-year-old cars with one working headlamp, bits of bodywork held together by gaffer tape, creaking under the weight of all the stuff rammed into the boot and the tower of battered old suitcases strapped to the roof rack! I'm sure I saw one carrying a mattress, as I said "No" to the ridiculous question "Do you use recreational drugs?" That seemed as dumb as asking me if I'm a terrorist.

Apart from the breath test, the conversation with the Swedish customs woman went roughly like this:

Customs: Where have you been?
Me: In Germany on holiday.
C: (looks at large car packed with stuff) What, on your own?
Me: With my wife, who flew back early.
C: Why did she do that?
Me: She was swimming in a race in Copenhagen.
C: Hope she got a good time, have a safe journey.

[firefly]

Yes, I saw many of these (though all in German). I was a bit flummoxed, since all the roads where I saw one had hard shoulders, and it is presumably preferable for emergency vehicles to use that than try to squeeze up the middle. Or am I missing something?

No, hard shoulder running is not preferable for emergency vehicles either. Hard shoulders are sparsely provided and in some cases even discontinuous. Shoulder running would emergency vehicle furthermore require to change from the fastest lane to lane 0 in the transition from fluid to stationary traffic conditions. Such a manoeuvre is rather obstructive. It is simpler and quicker if emergency vehicles keep running on an emergency lane between the stationary traffic.

In the south there were also overhead banners reading something like "next stop prison" but I couldn't work out what crime was being discouraged. There seemed to be a graphic including the digits 110, but given the recommended max speed is 130 km/h, and that none of the motorways in the area were restricted at all, never mind to 110, I don't think it was a speed. Equally, 110 mg/l is a very high threshold for BAC if that's the point you get jailed in Germany.

110 is the emergency number to call the police.

[FosseWay]

Yes, I saw many of these (though all in German). I was a bit flummoxed, since all the roads where I saw one had hard shoulders, and it is presumably preferable for emergency vehicles to use that than try to squeeze up the middle. Or am I missing something?

No, hard shoulder running is not preferable for emergency vehicles either. Hard shoulders are sparsely provided and in some cases even discontinuous. Shoulder running would emergency vehicle furthermore require to change from the fastest lane to lane 0 in the transition from fluid to stationary traffic conditions. Such a manoeuvre is rather obstructive. It is simpler and quicker if emergency vehicles keep running on an emergency lane between the stationary traffic.

True, fair enough. From what I saw of behaviour on the motorways in Germany in general, drivers there are probably disciplined enough for them all to do what is required. The danger in e.g. the UK or Sweden is that there will be a substantial enough minority of dumbasses who block the Rettungsgasse for it to be a problem for the emergency vehicles. If the risk for such blocking is higher than a certain level, then it makes more sense to use the hard shoulder, despite the valid point you make about having to move from the fastest lane to the shoulder.

In the south there were also overhead banners reading something like "next stop prison" but I couldn't work out what crime was being discouraged. There seemed to be a graphic including the digits 110, but given the recommended max speed is 130 km/h, and that none of the motorways in the area were restricted at all, never mind to 110, I don't think it was a speed. Equally, 110 mg/l is a very high threshold for BAC if that's the point you get jailed in Germany.

110 is the emergency number to call the police.

Ah, that could explain the graphic then. But I'm still mystified otherwise - the banners said something along the lines of "Nächste Abfahrt - Gefängnis" with smaller text beneath and the graphic with 110 to the right. I only saw a couple of them (all the others were the Rettungsgasse one) and at speed I couldn't focus on the banner for long enough to read the smaller text.

[roadtester]

I've found the banner here:

https://vm.baden-wuerttemberg.de/filead ... engnis.pdf

It's basically saying: "Next exit prison! Report it straight away! 110" (which as firefly says, is the number of the police)

It's one of a number of slogans calling on people to ring the police to report illegal racing, as this article explains:

https://www.suedkurier.de/region/kreis- ... 32,9769136

[murphaph]

The Rettungsgasse is unfortunately not universally implemented, even by many German drivers. The A100 has frequent tailbacks and the adherence is pretty poor along it in my experience living here.

Coupled to that you have a lot of foreign transit vehicles who have no idea they should be creating a Rettungsgasse during tailbacks and it can be really hit and miss.

It's a shame because the idea is really sound. I'd like to see standardisation of a lot more stuff like this at the EU level.

[FosseWay]

I've found the banner here:

https://vm.baden-wuerttemberg.de/filead ... engnis.pdf

It's basically saying: "Next exit prison! Report it straight away! 110" (which as firefly says, is the number of the police)

It's one of a number of slogans calling on people to ring the police to report illegal racing, as this article explains:

https://www.suedkurier.de/region/kreis- ... 32,9769136

That's the one - glad we got that cleared up!

It's not terribly surprising I didn't understand what it was getting at given that it doesn't actually say what the problem is. You clearly need to be aware of the ongoing campaign and other posters - it's not much use to people passing through.

[c2R]

...as I said "No" to the ridiculous question "Do you use recreational drugs?" That seemed as dumb as asking me if I'm a terrorist.

Apart from the breath test, the conversation with the Swedish customs woman went roughly like this:

Customs: Where have you been?
Me: In Germany on holiday.
C: (looks at large car packed with stuff) What, on your own?
Me: With my wife, who flew back early.
C: Why did she do that?
Me: She was swimming in a race in Copenhagen.
C: Hope she got a good time, have a safe journey.

I've had all sorts of these types of questions over the years. The French were once concerned I was smuggling drugs _into_ France and the Germans thought I could be a football hooligan in my UK plate car - it just happened I was entering the country when some sort of football championship was on in the country. It would have had to have been quite an elaborate plan to avoid detection to have done the journey in such a way to be entering via Puttgarden though! One year, customs in Finland also seemed concerned that they wanted to see my driving licence, despite having driven through seven countries before getting there - no worries at all about passports or car documentation. Needless to say British customs was always fun in an empty left hand drive car travelling on my own when I was much younger.