Genoa bridge collapse

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KeithW
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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ChrisH wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 13:17
There are a few relevant documents about TfL's asset management, such as this from 2017 - predating the Brent Cross structures work. TfL's bid to the Major Road Network included asking for funding to fix these structures (NB this is the A406/A41 junction complex).
Yes I saw that it was built in the 1960's so hasn't done too badly.. The Staples Corner Flyover which carries the A5 was reconstructed after the 1992 IRA bombing so should be in good shape. There is a discussion about the chosen design and building method at.
https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/p ... .1968.8223

The impression I got was that neither was optimal.but there were no serious concerns raised at the time. However inspection of the tendons would be good to do if possible.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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The criminal trial dealing with this tragedy starts today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62076262

Personally, I'm unconvinced that a criminal investigation and trial is the best way to deal with these kinds of failures, as unlike an independent aircrash type investigation everyone will be on much more of a defensive/adversarial posture.

That's not to say an investigation should not lead to criminal charges where they're warranted, more that it shouldn't be a case of folks feeling like they need to remain quiet to avoid possible jailtime for themselves, even if that's not actually an issue.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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rhyds wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:46 The criminal trial dealing with this tragedy starts today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62076262

Personally, I'm unconvinced that a criminal investigation and trial is the best way to deal with these kinds of failures, as unlike an independent aircrash type investigation everyone will be on much more of a defensive/adversarial posture.

That's not to say an investigation should not lead to criminal charges where they're warranted, more that it shouldn't be a case of folks feeling like they need to remain quiet to avoid possible jailtime for themselves, even if that's not actually an issue.
Surely unless they can prove someone did something intentional to bring the bridge down (even as much as lack of maintenance) then a criminal trial is a bit pointless anyway.

I guess the key point is that the design of the bridge didn't really help at all, encasing the cables in concrete might provide some protection from corrosion but not totally, and at the same time making the corrosion which is there more difficult if not impossible to detect easily and monitor. It is also clearly difficult to change the cables that are corroded if they are all through concrete stays as this would probably involve lengthy closures of the bridge and also may even result in it falling down anyway.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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rhyds wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:46 The criminal trial dealing with this tragedy starts today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62076262

Personally, I'm unconvinced that a criminal investigation and trial is the best way to deal with these kinds of failures, as unlike an independent aircrash type investigation everyone will be on much more of a defensive/adversarial posture.

That's not to say an investigation should not lead to criminal charges where they're warranted, more that it shouldn't be a case of folks feeling like they need to remain quiet to avoid possible jailtime for themselves, even if that's not actually an issue.
IIRC Italy uses the Napoleonic system, an investigating magistrate is appointed who investigates the case. Rather than is British adversarial system where prosecution and defence presents their case to a neutral judge or jury. One of the advantages is both sides are trying to curry favour with the magistrate so answering "No Comment" to all his questions is probably not the best course of action.

If four years after the event a criminal trail is taking place then the magistrate must have enough evidence to proceed.

Is there the equivalent of Corporate Manslaughter in Italy, where a senior manager takes a commercial decision such as reducing maintenance to save money or extending the life of assets beyond its' design life as the replacement is too expensive. Expecting if it does go wrong the failure will be progressive and can be caught before killing anyone.

However, if it does not go spectacularly wrong and kills someone. Then I, personally, could face jail time for making that call, would I reconsider.

Alternatively, there could be evidence of fraudulent record keeping or other potentially criminal safety failures.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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ForestChav wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:11 Surely unless they can prove someone did something intentional to bring the bridge down (even as much as lack of maintenance) then a criminal trial is a bit pointless anyway.

I guess the key point is that the design of the bridge didn't really help at all, encasing the cables in concrete might provide some protection from corrosion but not totally, and at the same time making the corrosion which is there more difficult if not impossible to detect easily and monitor. It is also clearly difficult to change the cables that are corroded if they are all through concrete stays as this would probably involve lengthy closures of the bridge and also may even result in it falling down anyway.
It doesn't work like that in Italy, take the Costa Concordia disaster, the Captain screwed up but it was not deliberate, he was handed a 16 year sentence.

In the case of the Linate airport crash they prosecuted 5 airport employees as there was no ground radar installed. In most countries such actions are seen as counter productive.

In the case of the L'Aquila earthquake they prosecuted seismologists for manslaughter on the grounds that they failed to predict it - that one eventually was thrown out after 7 years of litigation.

As for the bridge designer he has been dead for years but he had warned that the bridge was not being properly maintained. Some of the stays had been replaced or reinforced but then the money ran out.

Note that in the case of Linate the owners (the City of Milan) were NOT prosecuted for failing to provide the money for a ground radar system nor was the airport management which made it even more bizarre that they did prosecute the air traffic controllers who had to work with what they had.

https://www.eurocockpit.be/news/italian ... light-crew

The policy seems to be to find a convenient scapegoat and throw him in the slammer.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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JohnnyMo wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 20:15
IIRC Italy uses the Napoleonic system, an investigating magistrate is appointed who investigates the case. Rather than is British adversarial system where prosecution and defence presents their case to a neutral judge or jury. One of the advantages is both sides are trying to curry favour with the magistrate so answering "No Comment" to all his questions is probably not the best course of action.

If four years after the event a criminal trail is taking place then the magistrate must have enough evidence to proceed.

Is there the equivalent of Corporate Manslaughter in Italy, where a senior manager takes a commercial decision such as reducing maintenance to save money or extending the life of assets beyond its' design life as the replacement is too expensive. Expecting if it does go wrong the failure will be progressive and can be caught before killing anyone.

However, if it does not go spectacularly wrong and kills someone. Then I, personally, could face jail time for making that call, would I reconsider.

Alternatively, there could be evidence of fraudulent record keeping or other potentially criminal safety failures.

This is gesture politics not justice, someone must be declared guilty but preferably no one important.

In this case they seem to have decided to prosecute every one except the company responsible, 59 people involved in maintaining the bridge are on trial but the managers at the highest level are not, reportedly an out of court settlement on that has been agreed. My contacts in Italy suggest that this what usually happens and even when jail terms are given relatively few ever actually end up saving time as the verdicts are usually thrown out on appeal or sentences reduced on appeal.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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KeithW wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 13:42
ForestChav wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:11 Surely unless they can prove someone did something intentional to bring the bridge down (even as much as lack of maintenance) then a criminal trial is a bit pointless anyway.

I guess the key point is that the design of the bridge didn't really help at all, encasing the cables in concrete might provide some protection from corrosion but not totally, and at the same time making the corrosion which is there more difficult if not impossible to detect easily and monitor. It is also clearly difficult to change the cables that are corroded if they are all through concrete stays as this would probably involve lengthy closures of the bridge and also may even result in it falling down anyway.
It doesn't work like that in Italy, take the Costa Concordia disaster, the Captain screwed up but it was not deliberate, he was handed a 16 year sentence.
Slightly OT: But it was actually Jacob Rusli Bin, the helmsman, who screwed up (I'm not sure if he's ever been found after he escaped). I think from recollection he was given a bearing but set it the wrong way or something meaning the ship didn't avoid the rocks.

Schettino was in charge, though, and sometimes that is sufficient.

Of course, him abandoning ship before it had been evacuated is clearly against the law and didn't help his cause...
C, E flat and G go into a bar. The barman says "sorry, we don't serve minors". So E flat walks off, leaving C and G to share an open fifth between them.

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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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ForestChav wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 14:36 Slightly OT: But it was actually Jacob Rusli Bin, the helmsman, who screwed up (I'm not sure if he's ever been found after he escaped). I think from recollection he was given a bearing but set it the wrong way or something meaning the ship didn't avoid the rocks.

Schettino was in charge, though, and sometimes that is sufficient.

Of course, him abandoning ship before it had been evacuated is clearly against the law and didn't help his cause...
The Captain always carries the can, he is the one who ordered the ship to deviate from its pre planned course so he could show off to his latest girlfriend, bringing a ship that size so close the island was nuts. He was only 300 m from the shore in total darkness moving at high speed which was totally reckless.

Then there was the matter of hiring a helmsman who was Indonesian who's Italian was apparently not that good. Schettino also blamed the radar operator for not telling him he was too fast and too close to the island. What made matters worse was that while Schettino was ordering hard a port his deputy (Ciro Ambrosio) was ordering hard to starboard. It didnt matter as at that point either would have put them on the rocks.

The real issues were

1) Schettino turned off radar navigation aids and the safety systems as it would have not permitted the manoeuvre.
2) He was not wearing his reading glasses so couldn't clearly see the radar screen.
3) He didnt immediately declare an emergency and abandon ship. In calm waters close to the island there should have been plenty of time to get everyone off
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