Genoa bridge collapse

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Mark Hewitt
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Owain wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 19:53 Personally, I think this disaster is a demonstration more of the potential dangers of privatising anything to do with infrastructure or public services more generally (which should be run to provide a safe and reliable service, and never for profit) rather than anything to do with a fear of closing the road to undertake necessary works.

No comment re. "Brexiteer style logic".
What were the figures for the Forth Road Bridge? Wasn't it something like a decades worth of full closures every weekend, or build a new bridge?
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Owain wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 19:53 Personally, I think this disaster is a demonstration more of the potential dangers of privatising anything to do with infrastructure or public services more generally (which should be run to provide a safe and reliable service, and never for profit) rather than anything to do with a fear of closing the road to undertake necessary works.
Unfortunately Government ownership is no guarantee of that either. When the Aberfan disaster happened, the government simply went "meh" and did nothing to sort out the underlying cause (the dangerous slag heaps) until it decided to spend the public's own charitable donations on the work (finally returning the money almost 30 years later).

Dwr Cymru Welsh Water is an interesting example of a third way. Its not a government controlled outfit, neither is it for profit. The only downside seems to be higher than average bills.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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rhyds wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 19:53 Personally, I think this disaster is a demonstration more of the potential dangers of privatising anything to do with infrastructure or public services more generally (which should be run to provide a safe and reliable service, and never for profit) rather than anything to do with a fear of closing the road to undertake necessary works.
Unfortunately Government ownership is no guarantee of that either. When the Aberfan disaster happened, the government simply went "meh" and did nothing to sort out the underlying cause (the dangerous slag heaps) until it decided to spend the public's own charitable donations on the work (finally returning the money almost 30 years later).

Dwr Cymru Welsh Water is an interesting example of a third way. Its not a government controlled outfit, neither is it for profit. The only downside seems to be higher than average bills.
And Robens went on to write the report that laid the groundwork for the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974, despite 8 years prior being involved in on the biggest failures of workplace environmental safety mitigation in UK history.

That leaves a sour taste to be honest.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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rhyds wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09
Owain wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 19:53 Personally, I think this disaster is a demonstration more of the potential dangers of privatising anything to do with infrastructure or public services more generally (which should be run to provide a safe and reliable service, and never for profit) rather than anything to do with a fear of closing the road to undertake necessary works.
Unfortunately Government ownership is no guarantee of that either. When the Aberfan disaster happened, the government simply went "meh" and did nothing to sort out the underlying cause (the dangerous slag heaps) until it decided to spend the public's own charitable donations on the work (finally returning the money almost 30 years later).

Dwr Cymru Welsh Water is an interesting example of a third way. Its not a government controlled outfit, neither is it for profit. The only downside seems to be higher than average bills.
I think it is not the privatising per say, private and state owned companies are often as good or bad as each other. The NCB gave the impression of it being run for the NUM, not the country or the miners.

For Italy, Autostrade per l'Italia appears to have been hamstrung by politics in the Liguria region and that would have hit them as either a state owned or private company.

Where privatising services breaks down is these are often monopolies, where state ownership is usually preferable. Autostrada is effectively a monopoly. Monopolistic private companies tend to take the worst of state monopolies and make them worse for no apparent value to the customer.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Sad to say it, but after many years as a manager of a large bridge stock, I know it is much easier to get money for prestigious new build schemes than for maintenance. Politicians don't get votes for promising to spend on maintenance (except briefly in the wake of some serious event). They do however love to get their pictures in the media standing next to some new iconic build they can claim credit for.

I recall a conversation with a Local authority director many years ago (note - directors carry out the will of the politicians, good ones might argue but with some politicians they might not hold on to their jobs). In essence it went like this:

Me "we need to spend hundreds of thousands maintaining xxxxxxx"
Director "why, I've been here ?? years and it hasn't been any problem. The politicians have their own priorities and won't approve the spend for that".

Not so many years later I had to demand a very disruptive road closure when this old structure suddenly started to deflect alarmingly. The road was closed for months whilst funds were found and emergency repairs were carried out. We could easily have done the repairs earlier without closing the road.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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B9127 wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:43 BBC 2 Monday 12/8 at 9pm 'When Bridges Collapse' The Genoa Disaster - 60mins followed on Wednesday 14/8 at 9pm on National Geo 'Genoa Bridge Disaster' , The promo in the paper notes the theNat Geo programme presents the story in 'snazzier point by point fashion'
Just watched the BBC one.

I thought it was very good at explaining the background and the likely causes.

Now I have to try to find the other one on Sky catch-up.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

Post by Bryn666 »

2 Sheds wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 22:45 Sad to say it, but after many years as a manager of a large bridge stock, I know it is much easier to get money for prestigious new build schemes than for maintenance. Politicians don't get votes for promising to spend on maintenance (except briefly in the wake of some serious event). They do however love to get their pictures in the media standing next to some new iconic build they can claim credit for.

I recall a conversation with a Local authority director many years ago (note - directors carry out the will of the politicians, good ones might argue but with some politicians they might not hold on to their jobs). In essence it went like this:

Me "we need to spend hundreds of thousands maintaining xxxxxxx"
Director "why, I've been here ?? years and it hasn't been any problem. The politicians have their own priorities and won't approve the spend for that".

Not so many years later I had to demand a very disruptive road closure when this old structure suddenly started to deflect alarmingly. The road was closed for months whilst funds were found and emergency repairs were carried out. We could easily have done the repairs earlier without closing the road.
See, this is where directors cronying up to councillors should be criminally liable for failures... might concentrate minds. See also Grenfell, etc.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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2 Sheds wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 22:45 Sad to say it, but after many years as a manager of a large bridge stock, I know it is much easier to get money for prestigious new build schemes than for maintenance. Politicians don't get votes for promising to spend on maintenance (except briefly in the wake of some serious event). They do however love to get their pictures in the media standing next to some new iconic build they can claim credit for.

I recall a conversation with a Local authority director many years ago (note - directors carry out the will of the politicians, good ones might argue but with some politicians they might not hold on to their jobs). In essence it went like this:

Me "we need to spend hundreds of thousands maintaining xxxxxxx"
Director "why, I've been here ?? years and it hasn't been any problem. The politicians have their own priorities and won't approve the spend for that".

Not so many years later I had to demand a very disruptive road closure when this old structure suddenly started to deflect alarmingly. The road was closed for months whilst funds were found and emergency repairs were carried out. We could easily have done the repairs earlier without closing the road.
Can't say that surprises me in the slightest. Since I hate most of the new stuff anyway that just doubles my contempt for them.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:29
2 Sheds wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 22:45 Sad to say it, but after many years as a manager of a large bridge stock, I know it is much easier to get money for prestigious new build schemes than for maintenance. Politicians don't get votes for promising to spend on maintenance (except briefly in the wake of some serious event). They do however love to get their pictures in the media standing next to some new iconic build they can claim credit for.

I recall a conversation with a Local authority director many years ago (note - directors carry out the will of the politicians, good ones might argue but with some politicians they might not hold on to their jobs). In essence it went like this:

Me "we need to spend hundreds of thousands maintaining xxxxxxx"
Director "why, I've been here ?? years and it hasn't been any problem. The politicians have their own priorities and won't approve the spend for that".

Not so many years later I had to demand a very disruptive road closure when this old structure suddenly started to deflect alarmingly. The road was closed for months whilst funds were found and emergency repairs were carried out. We could easily have done the repairs earlier without closing the road.
See, this is where directors cronying up to councillors should be criminally liable for failures... might concentrate minds. See also Grenfell, etc.
The other big issue is that these days most engineering and design works seem to be subbed out to a handful of large national providers, giving the double whammy of:

1: The folks working on the project not having to deal with real-life consequences of the finished article. In Chris' recorded interview with Harry Yeadon, Harry mentioned that throughout all the work around Lancashire's motorway and highways development "we all knew we'd have to live with whatever we built", as they were pretty much all locals

and

2: Now that everything's hived off, what was a highways department becomes a project and contract management office. These are very different skills, and no all councils have retooled sucessfully
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

Post by ANiceEnglishman »

rhyds wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 13:16

The other big issue is that these days most engineering and design works seem to be subbed out to a handful of large national providers, giving the double whammy of:

1: The folks working on the project not having to deal with real-life consequences of the finished article. In Chris' recorded interview with Harry Yeadon, Harry mentioned that throughout all the work around Lancashire's motorway and highways development "we all knew we'd have to live with whatever we built", as they were pretty much all locals

and

2: Now that everything's hived off, what was a highways department becomes a project and contract management office. These are very different skills, and no all councils have retooled sucessfully
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

Post by Berk »

Helvellyn wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:37
2 Sheds wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 22:45Sad to say it, but after many years as a manager of a large bridge stock, I know it is much easier to get money for prestigious new build schemes than for maintenance. Politicians don't get votes for promising to spend on maintenance (except briefly in the wake of some serious event). They do however love to get their pictures in the media standing next to some new iconic build they can claim credit for.

I recall a conversation with a Local authority director many years ago (note - directors carry out the will of the politicians, good ones might argue but with some politicians they might not hold on to their jobs). In essence it went like this:

Me "we need to spend hundreds of thousands maintaining xxxxxxx"
Director "why, I've been here ?? years and it hasn't been any problem. The politicians have their own priorities and won't approve the spend for that".

Not so many years later I had to demand a very disruptive road closure when this old structure suddenly started to deflect alarmingly. The road was closed for months whilst funds were found and emergency repairs were carried out. We could easily have done the repairs earlier without closing the road.
Can't say that surprises me in the slightest. Since I hate most of the new stuff anyway that just doubles my contempt for them.
This lack (or abdication) of responsibility has hit home to me, too. Near where I work, the multi-storey car Park was closed suddenly at the end of July (more details in the linked reports). This was after 40 years continuous use, so maybe not that surprising. The closure was attributed to defects in the lift slab construction method, which had already caused a partial collapse at the Piper’s Row car Park in Wolverhampton in 1997.

However, the car park in Peterborough was inspected in 1997, and passed subject to routine checks and a long-term maintenance regime being in place. Although there was still a lifetime limit on the car park (until round about now), everything seemed in good shape - until about 2011/12.

Then the cuts started, and the long-term maintenance was sharply reduced. The result is that a structure that was ‘safe’ back in 2011 no longer is, and has had to be closed as a safety risk, prior to being demolished.

I have to say, I don’t have any problem with the actions the council have taken, but it’s completely shocking they have allowed conditions and safety checks deteriorate to the point where demolition was necessary.

It makes you wonder whether road structures such as bridges are checked independently, so they can’t just ‘slide into disrepair’, like the car park has.
Last edited by Berk on Sun Sep 01, 2019 22:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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This goes a long way to explaining why we have such dreadful roads. "Let it all slide, I'm moving on soon"
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Another Italian bridge collapse, this time caused by weather/land slide.
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Another Motorway Bridge Collapse in Italy

Post by A303Chris »

I've just seen this and it looks like a section of the A6 between Savona and Turin collapse over the weekend due to a landslide after heavy rains.

Not looking good for the motorways around Genoa at the moment.

Given the number of structures in this area of Italy, I wonder how many more are close to failure.
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Re: Another Motorway Bridge Collapse in Italy

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Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
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Re: Another Motorway Bridge Collapse in Italy

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I mentioned it yesterday in the other Genoa Collapse thread.
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Re: Another Motorway Bridge Collapse in Italy

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Big L wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 13:42 I mentioned it yesterday in the other Genoa Collapse thread.
Have merged them now
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Re: Another Motorway Bridge Collapse in Italy

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A303Chris wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:23 I've just seen this and it looks like a section of the A6 between Savona and Turin collapse over the weekend due to a landslide after heavy rains.

Not looking good for the motorways around Genoa at the moment.

Given the number of structures in this area of Italy, I wonder how many more are close to failure.
It seems that the A26 has also been closed while safety checks are carried out on some of the structures. Clicky (in Italian)
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Yes, I saw a piece on this latest motorway viaduct collapse in Northern Italy last night. Could it be due to the age of the motorway infrastructure in the area (about 50 odd years old), build issues, maintenance and the recent heavy rains, or a combination of all of the above?

This then begs the question of how many other bridge failures are likely in the near future?
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Re: Genoa bridge collapse

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Enceladus wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 23:31 Yes, I saw a piece on this latest motorway viaduct collapse in Northern Italy last night. Could it be due to the age of the motorway infrastructure in the area (about 50 odd years old), build issues, maintenance and the recent heavy rains, or a combination of all of the above?

This then begs the question of how many other bridge failures are likely in the near future?
The A6 collapse was caused by a landslide after heavy rainfall - I've been trying to work out which carriageway was affected, because it is effectively two different roads: one side is the original autostrada built by the Fascist regime in the 1930s, while the other is a later and more modern road built in the 1950s/60s.
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