Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

[Owain]

Remaining D roads to have four digits, with the first two representing the department the route is located in. All D roads in the map begin with 62 as they are in the Pas-De-Calais region.

So each department (occupying an area the size of a county and possibly several major towns and cities) could now only have 99 D-roads? Doesn't sound workable to me.

I’d get around that by introducing 5-digit D roads

There is a problem with 5-digit road numbers. It is much harder for most people to scan a 5-digit number and remember it than with any shorter number. Even 4-digit numbers can be hard enough!

What I would do with France is impose a nation-wide system whereby the prefix alters according to the importance of the route. The historic N7, for example, would therefore be N7 on the remaining primary sections, D7 on the departmental sections, and x7 if any lower tier is needed. Each number would be unique to each route. There would easily be enough numbers to go round, if the autoroutes retained their completely separate system, and if numbers on the N/D/x routes ran from 1 to 9999.

I'd do the same in Italy, and elsewhere on SABRE I have proposed it for the UK (e.g. the A4 would be numbered as such on green-signed sections, and B4 on white-signed sections).

[Euan]

I think four of anything is probably the most that I can stare at and instantly recognise it as that correct number of "objects" present. From five upwards, I have to stare for at least a moment and quickly count which takes a short but often vital amount of time. Road numbers with five digits would definitely take just a bit too long for the brain to process, but the only five digit allocations that I can think of anywhere are the local tertiary roads in Ireland and the U class roads in some English counties which are generally unsigned (although in Ireland some Lxxxxx numbers are signed, but only on small signs to the side of the road as if they were street names and are sometimes not even visible to drivers).

[exiled]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

[Peter350]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

So are you suggesting that D is used in addition to the proposed number split, ie: D14-233? Or are you proposing that the department number replaces the D prefix?

[exiled]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

So are you suggesting that D is used in addition to the proposed number split, ie: D14-233? Or are you proposing that the department number replaces the D prefix?

No. Just keep the D. Changing the D for 14 in Calvados, 22 in Cotes d'Armor, 2A in Haute Corse etc would not rationalise the system. It is a route departementale in Calvados, it does not need the 14, just the D. A better switch would be transferring roads to the regions.

[Euan]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

I'm sure that in each department 999 numbers would be more than enough to cover all of the D roads. The hyphen would definitely have to be included to make it easier to identify each department as the first digit after the department identifier in departments with single digit identifiers would easily be misinterpreted as being part of the identifier.

[Peter350]

On a further note, are you proposing that routes in departments 1-9 are written as 01-111 or just 1-111 etc?

[exiled]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

I'm sure that in each department 999 numbers would be more than enough to cover all of the D roads. The hyphen would definitely have to be included to make it easier to identify each department as the first digit after the department identifier in departments with single digit identifiers would easily be misinterpreted as being part of the identifier.

You'd think but some of the larger departement could easily run out of numbers, Bouches du Rhone, Rhone, Gironde etc. In terms of geographic usage using the code would not add anything to the current set up. The other bit as alluded above is all number codes are actually quite difficult to read. There is a reason letters and numbers are used by most jurisdictions on licence plates, they are easier to read quickly and to memorise.

For the lower numbers, French usage is 01, 02 for the departement numbers.

[Peter350]

In France five could work if it was for example 14-233 in Calvados or 33-1 in Gironde, but superfluous replacement of D.

Potentially transferring the Routes Departementale from the Departements to the Regions would allow a larger logical rationalisation within the regions. It would mean the number might switch between Normandy and Brittany on a route between Rouen and and Brest, but only once instead of six crossing from Seine Maritime-Calvados-Manche-Ile et Villain-Cotes d'Armor-Finistere.

I'm sure that in each department 999 numbers would be more than enough to cover all of the D roads. The hyphen would definitely have to be included to make it easier to identify each department as the first digit after the department identifier in departments with single digit identifiers would easily be misinterpreted as being part of the identifier.

You'd think but some of the larger departement could easily run out of numbers, Bouches du Rhone, Rhone, Gironde etc. In terms of geographic usage using the code would not add anything to the current set up. The other bit as alluded above is all number codes are actually quite difficult to read. There is a reason letters and numbers are used by most jurisdictions on licence plates, they are easier to read quickly and to memorise.

For the lower numbers, French usage is 01, 02 for the departement numbers.

This could be more controversial but what about using a different prefix for each metropolitan region?

B: Brittany
C: Corsica
F: Bourgogne-Franche-Comte
G: Grand Est
H: Hauts-de-France
I: Ile-de-France
L: Centre-Val de Loire
O: Occitanie
P: Pays de la Loire
R: Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes
V: Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Y: Normandy
Z: Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur

The current D roads could be administered by the regions with each one using their above prefix in place of D.

There would then be no need for 5 digit road numbers because separate routes with the same number would have different prefixes, making the two routes appear unique.

[exiled]

This could be more controversial but what about using a different prefix for each metropolitan region?

B: Brittany
C: Corsica
F: Bourgogne-Franche-Comte
G: Grand Est
H: Hauts-de-France
I: Ile-de-France
L: Centre-Val de Loire
O: Occitanie
P: Pays de la Loire
R: Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes
V: Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Y: Normandy
Z: Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur

The current D roads could be administered by the regions with each one using their above prefix in place of D.

There would then be no need for 5 digit road numbers because separate routes with the same number would have different prefixes, making the two routes appear unique.

Belgium has not followed the Spanish practice of different prefixes for the regions, for a good reason, they could get complicated.

The RN/RD idea is firmly fixed in French signage and usage, 'Paris par RN' or 'Bordeaux par RD' signs are quite common. As France decentralises there is no way the Metropolitan regions would accept the letters being assigned from Paris unless it is one letter. Normandy is not going to accept Y as a code either as it does not form part of its name in French.

[Owain]

Belgium has not followed the Spanish practice of different prefixes for the regions, for a good reason, they could get complicated.

As far as I'm aware, nobody has followed the Spanish practice because it is ridiculous! It makes Italy's slightly crazy numbering scheme look positively sane.

The RN/RD idea is firmly fixed in French signage and usage, 'Paris par RN' or 'Bordeaux par RD' signs are quite common. As France decentralises there is no way the Metropolitan regions would accept the letters being assigned from Paris unless it is one letter. Normandy is not going to accept Y as a code either as it does not form part of its name in French.

It's funny to think of places like Brittany and Corsica being considered 'metropolitan'!

One solution might be to abandon prefixes at local level, but use a regional/departmental emblem containing a number. Think of US-style shields containing a number, with the shield specific to each region or department.

[exiled]

Belgium has not followed the Spanish practice of different prefixes for the regions, for a good reason, they could get complicated.

As far as I'm aware, nobody has followed the Spanish practice because it is ridiculous! It makes Italy's slightly crazy numbering scheme look positively sane.

The RN/RD idea is firmly fixed in French signage and usage, 'Paris par RN' or 'Bordeaux par RD' signs are quite common. As France decentralises there is no way the Metropolitan regions would accept the letters being assigned from Paris unless it is one letter. Normandy is not going to accept Y as a code either as it does not form part of its name in French.

It's funny to think of places like Brittany and Corsica being considered 'metropolitan'!

One solution might be to abandon prefixes at local level, but use a regional/departmental emblem containing a number. Think of US-style shields containing a number, with the shield specific to each region or department.

The Spanish system works perfectly on paper in a highly decentralised state and as a administrative 'who operates this road' way. As a way of navigating your way around, not so much.

For the emblems, several regions use similar emblems. Both pre unification Norman regions used the two leopards in some manner as do each of the departements of Normandy. The Fleur de Lis is used by the Ile de France. And the Centre-Val de Loire. And several departement.

[GC_A690]

Renumbering wholesale is not a good idea - just ask Portugal. It's a tremendous muddle with new numbering schemes superseding old numbering schemes but not for all roads, so the old numbers are still used on signs in most places - while the motorways are included in the numbering scheme but also have their own entirely separate numbering system...

The Spanish system meanwhile is a complete horror show and should surely not be replicated anywhere!

[Vierwielen]

Remaining D roads to have four digits, with the first two representing the department the route is located in. All D roads in the map begin with 62 as they are in the Pas-De-Calais region.

So each department (occupying an area the size of a county and possibly several major towns and cities) could now only have 99 D-roads? Doesn't sound workable to me.

Unlike English counties where the Government keeps on messing around with the county boundaries (Scotland, Wales and NI are even worse), I believe that the French departmental boundaries are virually unchanged since Napoleon's time. Also, with few exceptions, the departements are all very similar in size (but not in population). The underlying reason was, I believe, that the entire departement was within a days horse ride of the departmental administrative town.

[Euan]

Renumbering wholesale is not a good idea - just ask Portugal. It's a tremendous muddle with new numbering schemes superseding old numbering schemes but not for all roads, so the old numbers are still used on signs in most places - while the motorways are included in the numbering scheme but also have their own entirely separate numbering system...

The Spanish system meanwhile is a complete horror show and should surely not be replicated anywhere!

In Portugal the IP and IC designations were introduced later and only took over a small fraction of about 200 different N roads. I think for administrative purposes the IP and IC numbers are used but aside from the most important non-motorway roads the N numbers are still quite widely known even if though they are not modern "official" numbers. Although a different numbering system for motorways is fairly normal anyway, except in Ireland.

[exiled]

Well, the Journal Officiel de la République Française

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jo_pdf.d ... 0037964816

Has announced France has introduced a new level. Route Metropolitaine, with replace RDs in places like Lyon.
Their cartouche colour is turquoise.

[Bryn666]

Well, the Journal Officiel de la République Française

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jo_pdf.d ... 0037964816

Has announced France has introduced a new level. Route Metropolitaine, with replace RDs in places like Lyon.
Their cartouche colour is turquoise.

Nice has had these for a few years. The M6007 is the old N7.

[exiled]

Well, the Journal Officiel de la République Française

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jo_pdf.d ... 0037964816

Has announced France has introduced a new level. Route Metropolitaine, with replace RDs in places like Lyon.
Their cartouche colour is turquoise.

Nice has had these for a few years. The M6007 is the old N7.

In this case probably the JORF is making it official.

[Euan]

Does the new classification only affect urban D roads switching them to M roads? It would make sense for the current numbers on the D routes in metropolitan areas to be retained even if the prefix changes to minimise any confusion that might arise from the new system being brought in.