Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Going on holiday? Just returned with pictures or news? Found an interesting website? Post everything international in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Peter350 »

France uses three levels of classification for its roads: A for autoroutes, N for national trunk roads and D for non-trunk (department) roads. It sounds good in principle but the problem with this system is that the D classification has ended up being too widely used, mainly as a result of former N roads being detrunked. D roads can vary from dual carriageways worthy of motorway status, to minor rural roads which would be unclassified if they were in the UK. Many D roads change number at department borders, which can cause major confusion amongst drivers who are unfamiliar with the area. To complicate things even further, the numbers are duplicated in different departments and don’t reflect the quality of the road. For example, The D1 in Somme is a typical rural S2 passing through several villages, while the D1 in Aisne is a high quality dual carriageway linking St Quentin with Tergnier.

I think it would be good to introduce a new R road classification between N and D to highlight the major roads which are no longer of national significance, but still form an important route between regional centres. The designation could be applied to all roads which were formerly N roads to signify their historical importance, so the original N1 route between Paris and Calais would become the R1, the bypassed sections of the N2 would become R2 and so on. This R classification would distinguish regionally important major routes (equivalent of UK A roads) from the more local D roads which are of a lower standard.

Any thoughts on this?
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Owain »

Peter350 wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 22:44The designation could be applied to all roads which were formerly N roads to signify their historical importance, so the original N1 route between Paris and Calais would become the R1, the bypassed sections of the N2 would become R2 and so on. This R classification would distinguish regionally important major routes (equivalent of UK A roads) from the more local D roads which are of a lower standard.

Any thoughts on this?
Italy has started to move in this direction, using the "SR" (strada regionale) prefix for some roads that used to be "SS" (strada statale) roads, but which are too important to downgrade to "SP" (strada provinciale) status. I think it's a good idea.

For example, the former SS2 in Tuscany is now SR2.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Al__S »

It would even be easy to use the Metropolitan Regions (12 on the mainland) to organise and administer.

They do have a fourth (and fifth?) classification. Much like C & U roads in the UK, they tend to be unsigned as such, but there is a C classification (possibly for Commune, the lowest level of french government?) and I seem to remember VC being a thing too, a C road that might not be paved for it's entire length.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by c2R »

The strangest thing about their system appears to be that road numbers such as D2 tend to be very insignificant roads in the department, whereas D600-D999 seem to be much more important.

I think that we're fairly unique in Europe that our road classifications are linked to characterists and usage rather than administrative body. The Spanish system, however, I think is far more confusing!
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Chris Bertram »

c2R wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 08:52 The strangest thing about their system appears to be that road numbers such as D2 tend to be very insignificant roads in the department, whereas D600-D999 seem to be much more important.
When detrunking an N road, it is often given a D number beginning with 3, 6 or 9 followed by its old N number. So the old N74 between Dijon and Beaune, for instance, is now D974. This detrunking happened due to a new motorway being constructed (A31?) along the same corridor.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Bryn666 »

Nice of course has M routes, for Metropolitan, which have replaced most routes. The old N98 is now M6098, the N7 is now M6007, etc.

It's even messier than the D system. Think France has lost its way a little bit.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
mikehindsonevans
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:44
Location: Cheshire, but working week time in Cambridge

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by mikehindsonevans »

Al__S wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 07:16 It would even be easy to use the Metropolitan Regions (12 on the mainland) to organise and administer.

They do have a fourth (and fifth?) classification. Much like C & U roads in the UK, they tend to be unsigned as such, but there is a C classification (possibly for Commune, the lowest level of french government?) and I seem to remember VC being a thing too, a C road that might not be paved for it's entire length.
Out in "les sticks" (sorry!) the "C" numbered roads are widely signposted.
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Euan »

WikiSara is an excellent information base for roads in France, including D roads:

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Accueil

The wiki appears to distinguish each D road of the same number by bracketing the unique code number that each department carries which is based on ordering the departments alphabetically by name. In terms of numbering, they are similar to C roads in the UK (or GB, at least) being numbered locally and changing number at jurisdiction limits.

As seems to be case for French D roads, the number of digits carried by British C roads gives no indication as to the importance of the road. For C roads, there is sometimes but not always a geographical sequence used to number the roads (like in NI), I don't know if there are any similar geographical sequences amongst groups of D roads within the French departments.

I think France could use a new road classification somewhere in between N and D that would cover roughly the equivalent of B roads and less important A roads in the UK and have a nationwide numbering system which could hopefully be covered by four digit numbers. The road can still have numbers nationwide yet be maintained locally - consider R roads in Ireland, for instance.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Bryn666 »

Euan wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:51 WikiSara is an excellent information base for roads in France, including D roads:

http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Accueil

The wiki appears to distinguish each D road of the same number by bracketing the unique code number that each department carries which is based on ordering the departments alphabetically by name. In terms of numbering, they are similar to C roads in the UK (or GB, at least) being numbered locally and changing number at jurisdiction limits.

As seems to be case for French D roads, the number of digits carried by British C roads gives no indication as to the importance of the road. For C roads, there is sometimes but not always a geographical sequence used to number the roads (like in NI), I don't know if there are any similar geographical sequences amongst groups of D roads within the French departments.

I think France could use a new road classification somewhere in between N and D that would cover roughly the equivalent of B roads and less important A roads in the UK and have a nationwide numbering system which could hopefully be covered by four digit numbers. The road can still have numbers nationwide yet be maintained locally - consider R roads in Ireland, for instance.
Part of the problem is the French see road numbers as an admin thing rather than a navigational thing; pretty much the opposite of us.

Therefore they're not bothered that the A3 is ridiculously short and an utter waste of a single digit motorway number, because administratively it fits in their spoke numbering system.

It would be interesting to see how you'd number things, though.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Ritchie333
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 11764
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 20:40
Location: Ashford, Kent
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Ritchie333 »

The real reason that road numbers in France are a complete dejunner du chien is that people don't use them to navigate, although that may be changing with the autoroutes. Traditionally, you just got a signpost to A,B,C and "Autres Directions" and navigated by place. Kind of analogous to railway travel here.
--
SABRE Maps - all the best maps in one place....
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Bryn666 »

Ritchie333 wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 14:05 The real reason that road numbers in France are a complete dejunner du chien is that people don't use them to navigate, although that may be changing with the autoroutes. Traditionally, you just got a signpost to A,B,C and "Autres Directions" and navigated by place. Kind of analogous to railway travel here.
I think even the autoroutes are the same... although autoroute numbers in themselves are used as destinations, once you're on one it's the same principles as anywhere else.

"BORDEAUX-NANTES-LYON" as you approach Paris sums it up. Sign far away and cater for strategic travel.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24640
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by exiled »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 14:14
Ritchie333 wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 14:05 The real reason that road numbers in France are a complete dejunner du chien is that people don't use them to navigate, although that may be changing with the autoroutes. Traditionally, you just got a signpost to A,B,C and "Autres Directions" and navigated by place. Kind of analogous to railway travel here.
I think even the autoroutes are the same... although autoroute numbers in themselves are used as destinations, once you're on one it's the same principles as anywhere else.

"BORDEAUX-NANTES-LYON" as you approach Paris sums it up. Sign far away and cater for strategic travel.
my experience is the autoroutes use their numbers more both on the signs and information 'Paris par A5' or 'BP =>A13 fluide', the nationales and departementales are more destination led. As I understand it the regions still are not responsible to for the network, this might come if the Conseils Genereaux are abolished, but the numbers are more 'ownership' then responsibility.

Belgium still has a much more unified numbering scheme almost 40 years after state reforms put roads into the responsibility of the three regions.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Peter350 »

This map should give an insight as to how my idea would work:

N road expressways upgraded to autoroute wherever possible, hence the N216 is now an extension of the A26.

Important D roads upgraded to R roads. Like D9xx series roads, the number should reflect the history of the route so any road that was part of the old N40 should become Rx40 etc. Unlike D roads however, there should be no change of number at department borders.

Remaining D roads to have four digits, with the first two representing the department the route is located in. All D roads in the map begin with 62 as they are in the Pas-De-Calais region.
Attachments
France renumbering - Calais.jpg
User avatar
Peter350
Member
Posts: 803
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 20:20
Location: Southampton

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Peter350 »

Map 2, showing how the system would work on a rural scale. The R road numbers are based on the former national routes as shown on the "1959 Europe" layer on SABRE maps.
Attachments
France renumbering - Somme East.jpg
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Owain »

c2R wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 08:52I think that we're fairly unique in Europe that our road classifications are linked to characterists and usage rather than administrative body. The Spanish system, however, I think is far more confusing!
In Britain, the Spanish seem to have a reputation for chaos. It wasn't roads-related, but in 1869 the British foreign secretary mused:
Lord Clarendon wrote:I sometimes wonder whether the Italians know how they have fallen in European estimation or whether if they did know they wd care – the bright hopes entertained some time ago of their fitness for representve govt have disappd & they are now bracketted [sic] with those masters of disorder the Spaniards.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Al__S
Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Al__S »

As an aside, the re-numbering that has long confused me was turning the N10 south of Bordeaux into the A63- I guess this was because the A6x autoroutes are clustered in the south west, but with the A10 extending north from Bordeaux to Paris it would have made a lot of sense to have had a continuous number all the way to the Spanish border. But as is said in this thread, that's not the french approach to numbering- although the entire A10-A63 (and the N230/A630 joining them) are part of E5
User avatar
firefly
Member
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 21:28
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by firefly »

Peter350 wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 22:44 France uses three levels of classification for its roads: A for autoroutes, N for national trunk roads and D for non-trunk (department) roads. It sounds good in principle but the problem with this system is that the D classification has ended up being too widely used, mainly as a result of former N roads being detrunked. D roads can vary from dual carriageways worthy of motorway status, to minor rural roads which would be unclassified if they were in the UK. Many D roads change number at department borders, which can cause major confusion amongst drivers who are unfamiliar with the area. To complicate things even further, the numbers are duplicated in different departments and don’t reflect the quality of the road. For example, The D1 in Somme is a typical rural S2 passing through several villages, while the D1 in Aisne is a high quality dual carriageway linking St Quentin with Tergnier.

I think it would be good to introduce a new R road classification between N and D to highlight the major roads which are no longer of national significance, but still form an important route between regional centres. The designation could be applied to all roads which were formerly N roads to signify their historical importance, so the original N1 route between Paris and Calais would become the R1, the bypassed sections of the N2 would become R2 and so on. This R classification would distinguish regionally important major routes (equivalent of UK A roads) from the more local D roads which are of a lower standard.

Any thoughts on this?
You see a problem which is actually not there. And by suggesting to introduce yet another category you would not even solve it. Departmental roads are classified as such because these roads are looked after by the administration of each department and national roads by the central government. It is as simple as that and there is no need to complicate things.

How can a Brit be bothered by a road changing its number at a border? You should be used to it. The M6 becomes A74(M) and M74 later on in your very own country after all.
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 13:52Therefore they're not bothered that the A3 is ridiculously short and an utter waste of a single digit motorway number, because administratively it fits in their spoke numbering system.
Your M2 is barely longer and got its single digit number for exactly the same reason as the French A 3.
Al__S wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 22:14 As an aside, the re-numbering that has long confused me was turning the N10 south of Bordeaux into the A63- I guess this was because the A6x autoroutes are clustered in the south west, but with the A10 extending north from Bordeaux to Paris it would have made a lot of sense to have had a continuous number all the way to the Spanish border. But as is said in this thread, that's not the french approach to numbering- although the entire A10-A63 (and the N230/A630 joining them) are part of E5
The A 63 is a completely different road. It does not even meet the A 10 at any point. Why on earth should these two distinct road share the same road number?
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Euan »

Al__S wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 22:14 As an aside, the re-numbering that has long confused me was turning the N10 south of Bordeaux into the A63- I guess this was because the A6x autoroutes are clustered in the south west, but with the A10 extending north from Bordeaux to Paris it would have made a lot of sense to have had a continuous number all the way to the Spanish border. But as is said in this thread, that's not the french approach to numbering- although the entire A10-A63 (and the N230/A630 joining them) are part of E5
The A1-A6 and A10-A16 form branches that are Paris-based and in clockwise order, with the A1 going to Lille; the A6 going to Lyon; the A10 going to Bordeaux and the A16 going to Dunkirk. The A7 continues on from the A6 south of Lyon and the A8 and A9 then head in opposite directions along the south coast. The numbering must treat large cities as priorities rather than physical limits as the A10 terminating at Bordeaux and becoming the A63 is not the only example of this - there is also the case of the A1 reaching Lille and after a non-motorway section through the city, the road continues as the A22 for the short distance to the Belgian border. The same could be said for the A6 at Lyon continuing as the A7 to Marseille. At least the E roads are signed anyway, so on the ground it doesn't really matter that the A10 becomes the A63 at Bordeaux - it is still the E05.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Bryn666 »

firefly wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 23:05
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 13:52Therefore they're not bothered that the A3 is ridiculously short and an utter waste of a single digit motorway number, because administratively it fits in their spoke numbering system.
Your M2 is barely longer and got its single digit number for exactly the same reason as the French A 3.
Agreed; the M20 is the more important corridor yet has the lesser number - however as you say numbers are allocated in an administrative system and not allocated by 'importance'. What is silly in the A2/M2 example is the road is not a boundary, the Thames is, so there is no damage done to the 'system' if the M2 was routed via Folkestone.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Is it time for France to introduce a new level of road classification?

Post by Owain »

Euan wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 23:32
Al__S wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 22:14 As an aside, the re-numbering that has long confused me was turning the N10 south of Bordeaux into the A63- I guess this was because the A6x autoroutes are clustered in the south west, but with the A10 extending north from Bordeaux to Paris it would have made a lot of sense to have had a continuous number all the way to the Spanish border. But as is said in this thread, that's not the french approach to numbering- although the entire A10-A63 (and the N230/A630 joining them) are part of E5
The A1-A6 and A10-A16 form branches that are Paris-based and in clockwise order, with the A1 going to Lille; the A6 going to Lyon; the A10 going to Bordeaux and the A16 going to Dunkirk. The A7 continues on from the A6 south of Lyon and the A8 and A9 then head in opposite directions along the south coast. The numbering must treat large cities as priorities rather than physical limits as the A10 terminating at Bordeaux and becoming the A63 is not the only example of this - there is also the case of the A1 reaching Lille and after a non-motorway section through the city, the road continues as the A22 for the short distance to the Belgian border. The same could be said for the A6 at Lyon continuing as the A7 to Marseille. At least the E roads are signed anyway, so on the ground it doesn't really matter that the A10 becomes the A63 at Bordeaux - it is still the E05.
I think the A4 originally terminated at Metz; the onward autoroute towards Strasbourg (or was it Saarbrücken?) was originally numbered A34.

You could argue that the A61-A62 and the A71-A75 ought to have single numbers as well, but the French system doesn't really work like that...

... except in the case of the A89, which should probably have two or even three different numbers!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Post Reply