roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 18:02
Back in the seventies, the Belgian network was brilliant - modern, superb alignments, elegant junctions/structures, extensively lit including in rural areas, mostly D2M but it just doesn't really seem to have been upgraded in line with traffic levels and changing expectations.
I don't know enough about e.g. how politics works in Belgium to venture a suggestion why that might have happened.
My feel is that it's likely more to do with economics than politics. Belgium has had a very high public sector debt to GDP ratio for several decades. It peaked at around 130% in the early to mid 1990s and is currently over 100%. With public debt that high I doubt that roads investment is a big priority.
It's a long time since I've driven much in Belgium, but back in the mid 1990s when I lived there, the Brussels ring was certainly very congested during rush hour, but otherwise rarely problematic. By the standards of the day it was very high spec, especially the north east section, from the E19 Antwerp turn past the airport to the E40 junction for Liege.
Nice to know I have a route named after me on the Continent!
From now on, the road journey will only be known to my wife and myself as "Owains route" we have looked at three routes and decided the N225----E42 is by far the best option for us avoiding congestion on ring roads. an extra 15 minutes on the journey will be far better than sitting between deisel fume spouting trucks on any ring road.
So i will raise a glass of beer on arival in Mastricht to "Owains route "..
Cheers all , safe journeys.
Owain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 09:55
on one trip through Belgium, I saw three accidents in one day, but I have never seen an accident in France
Funnily enough, it is the other way around for me - one south of Rouen on the A13, the other one ironically on the A25 at Lille last summer, where it took about half an hour to join from the D652 at junction 7.
We have gone to Germany for many years and usually go Dover-Dunkirk, and use the E42 which gets you to the Mosel and the Rhine.
Last year coming back we decided to stay at Aachen for a couple of days on the way back from near Nuremberg. I wanted to see the tomb of Charlemagne, the first Holy Roman Emperor, which was basically the 1st Reich of Germany.
Normally we just stick on the E42. This takes you all the way to Dunkirk, and then for Calais you just take the A16 to Calais. SO best route will be A25 towards Liege, then join the E42 (probably labelled E3 at the junction). The road then becomes A15 as the E3 goes to Brussels, but the E42 signing is very consistent. The only stressful place is going past Lille where you have to watch the signs like a hawk to make sure you are in the right lane for the E42. Also keep your eye open just past Mons, because the E42 goes off to the north-west, the main road carries on to Paris.
I have taken the E42 on a few occasions. It is a quite road, and for a good reason. The Flemmish and Walloon communities often behave like two spoilt children. Many years back a new, badly-needed motorway was build in Flanders, but the Walloons refused to sanction the funds in Parliament unless they also got a new motorway, so the motorway that now comprises part of the E42 was built.
Vierwielen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 23:33
I have taken the E42 on a few occasions. It is a quite road, and for a good reason. The Flemmish and Walloon communities often behave like two spoilt children. Many years back a new, badly-needed motorway was build in Flanders, but the Walloons refused to sanction the funds in Parliament unless they also got a new motorway, so the motorway that now comprises part of the E42 was built.
LOL !
One time we stayed a night in an IBIS in Lille and took the E17 (A22) north intending to then take the E403 (A17) towards Tournai. Except we missed it " The Flemings couldn't possibly use this name so the sign said Doornik ! After a while, I thought we should have seen the junction, so we stopped and had a look at my Michelin Europe map, to see, in really tiny letter,s the word 'Doornik' underneath Tournai ! So we turned round and were soon back on track.
I'm late to this thread, but thought I'd throw my two (Euro-) cents in nonetheless. Every Summer since 2016 we've been going to Germany camping in the car via the Channel Tunnel, stopping just north of Frankfurt (am Main) each time en route to visit friends and continuing to various different Alpine campsites.
I've not been to Maastricht on any of these trips, but we always pass Liège on the way (we too have always entered Germany on the Belgian A27/German A60, otherwise known as E42) and of course Maastricht isn't far from there up the Dutch A2/E25. I would strongly favour 'Owain's Route' too, but we always do it with a little twist, which may or may not find favour with you depending on your personal preference.
Leaving Eurotunnel at Calais, we get on the French A16 and follow it past Dunkirk until a few miles beyond the Belgian border, where it becomes the Belgian A18. We turn off onto the Belgian N8 near Veurne, at junction 1a. There follows about 25 minutes of pleasant S2 driving through pretty Flanders villages until you reach the N38, a wide S2 ring road of Ypres. You never get near urban Ypres, though, because after about another five minutes of eastbound travel, you hit the terminus of the Belgian A19 (which, travelling away from Calais, starts rather than ends here). Thereafter, you're on motorway again all the way (in our case) into Germany and certainly to Liège and Maastricht. We go A19 to near Courtrai/Kortrijk, switch to the A17 and follow that to Marquain, where you hit the Belgian A8 and rejoin 'Owain's route'. Thereafter, you just follow the E42 the rest of the way.
We incorporate the S2 N8 section in Belgium because in exchange for taking that slightly slower route, we get to avoid Lille, Antwerp *and* Brussels completely, which can all be 'sticking-point' towns on any of the other routes. The other towns we pass near on the N8/E42 route never seem to hold us up; you do go near Courtrai, Mons, Namur and Liège, but we've never had trouble at any of those. It also works well for us, because it is usually breakfast time by the time we're going down the N8 in Flanders. By this point on our trip, we've been through a couple of hours' wee-small-hours driving from Cambridgeshire to the tunnel, then the crossing and most of another hour on the road, and it's a nice non-motorway services opportunity to have a break. We love stopping at a bakery in one of the pretty farming villages, and there's a sweet old windmill at Oostvleteren where we often have a bite to eat as the sun rises. In fact, this has become a bit of a symbol for the family that we're at the start of our holidays, when we have a sunrise breakfast at the windmill...!
Of course, none of that might appeal to you; you might prefer to stay on the motorway all the way. There's no doubt that the route with the N8 takes a little longer, but the tiny delay is worth it for us in terms of where it fits into our journey. Your mileage may (quite literally) vary...!
I've also tried more northerly routes into Germany, but there's no doubt that Antwerp is the sticking point on those as far as I'm concerned. When I have gone that way, I *always* use the Liefkenshoektunnel and the R2 to go to the north of the city rather than slogging it out through the middle on the R1. It cost six Euros for a car last time I went that way... but it was worth it.
This year, we're not going to south Germany and the Alps as in previous years, but north to Denmark... so we will be doing battle with Antwerp again. My planned route is Calais/A16F/A18B/Jabbeke/A10/Aalter/N44/N49/A11/R2/Liefkenshoektunnel/A12B/A4NL/A58/A16/A59/A27/Utrecht/A28/A1NL/and into Germany on the A30. Then we can turn off onto the German A1 just before Osnabrück and follow that up to Hamburg and thence to Denmark.
Of course, most of that isn't relevant to reaching Maastricht, but you could turn off onto the Belgian A13 after Antwerp and use that to reach Maastricht. Antwerp has been such a problem for me in the past, though, that I would always favour 'Owain's Route', with my twist of the N8 Flanders section added for extra windmillation...!
Last edited by B1018 A120 M11 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 13:56, edited 2 times in total.
Calling at Wickham Bishops, Langford & Ulting, Maldon West, Barons Lane Halt, Cold Norton, Stow St Mary, and Woodham Ferrers...
Thank you Sir, without showing that section of the route to my my wife,,, it should give me a chance to show off my instinctive knowledge of the European road system, plus showing her some pretty villages on the way rather than 4 hrs of carriageway.
That alone should give me some feet up with a cold beer time once we reach Maastricht, so its "Owains route" with a twist of something now.
I have to stick with that now,,,
so thanks to all for the help... safe driving, and always use the big spanners.
For reference, here's the sweet windmill at Oostvleteren on the Flemish N8... and 'behind' the camera in that view is the crossroads with the N8 that you'd be following. There are two bakeries at the crossroads — they certainly like their bakeries in Flanders! If you're happy to drive another two minutes out of your way, the church square in Oostvleteren is also very pretty (see here) and there's yet ANOTHER bakery/patisserie there (on the right of the view linked above).
...you can tell we've come through here a few times, can't you?
Stuff to watch out for on that route: after you've got back on the motorway near Ypres (the Belgian A19), the junction from there to the A17/E403 at Moorsele is fine, a standard cloverleaf at which you're doing the easiest right-to-right movement. But when you reach the end of the A17/E403 at Marquain, you're cloverleafing again to join the Belgian A8 (this is the point where you rejoin 'Owain's Route' via Lille), but this time around a horrible and very tight 270-degree curve. The skid marks on the road here show many accidents there have been! As long as you go into the curve at a sensible (I would say sub-40 miles-per-hour) speed, you'll be fine. I seem to remember a sign halfway round the curve the first time I negotiated it which I believe said the French equivalent of 'Watch out - if you thought this curve was tight, it's about to get even tighter...' but I can't see it on Streetview now.
After that, you just need to remember (a few miles later) to turn off the A8 onto the Belgian A16, and later, once the A16 has merged with the Belgian A7 (at Hautrage junction, which is much nicer and safer than the Marquain cloverleaf I mentioned above), you have to then turn off onto the A15 for Liège... but despite all the different Belgian A-numbers, this is all just what you do to follow the E42, which is one E-route and clearly signed as such in Belgium anyway.
It's a winner of a route for us - but I can see that it wouldn't necessarily work for everyone.
Just to return to the issue of avoiding Antwerp when taking more northerly routes, as discussed above... I have also tried the Westerscheldttunnel, mentioned above. It definitely avoids Antwerp and passes through some pretty (if very flat) villages and countryside... but it was quite a detour and I'm not sure it was a material improvement on just sucking up the inevitable delay that comes with pretty much any of the routes that go near Antwerp. Unless you really are allergic to sitting in jams and will happily take a *much* more roundabout route to avoid even the possibility of encountering them. I used that route on my way back from Amsterdam to Calais for Eurotunnel by car once. The difference was, I had time to kill until my booked crossing and was actually *trying* to soak up hours, so I didn't care if it took longer. For the record, I went (starting from Amsterdam): A2 southbound/A27/A59/A16/A58/A4NL/A58NL/N62NL/Westerscheldttunnel, and then, because I was STILL trying to kill time, I went on the roundabout N61/N251NL to Aardenburg and Eede, then crossed the Belgian border and came out on the N49B at Maldegem... then went N44 to Aalter and the A10/A18B/A16F back to Calais. Used up the time nicely, but was not a route I could recommend in a hurry...!
Calling at Wickham Bishops, Langford & Ulting, Maldon West, Barons Lane Halt, Cold Norton, Stow St Mary, and Woodham Ferrers...
Vierwielen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 23:33
I have taken the E42 on a few occasions. It is a quite road, and for a good reason. The Flemmish and Walloon communities often behave like two spoilt children. Many years back a new, badly-needed motorway was build in Flanders, but the Walloons refused to sanction the funds in Parliament unless they also got a new motorway, so the motorway that now comprises part of the E42 was built.
The Third State Reforms of 1989 - 1990 placed infrastructure with the three regions, the 1 franc for 1 franc spent either side really ended then.
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The should really build another motorway across the diamond from the E17 around Dendermonde around Aarschot and join the E314, which would let all that freight traffic miss out Brussels and Antwerp entirely.
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Where we're going, we DO need roads
More ambitious but i’ve always thought they should extend the Belgian A18 east of Jabbeke and join it up with an extension of the Dutch A58 from Middelburg, incorporating the Knooke-heist section of A11 along the way. It could cross the Westerschelde via a new barrage similar to the Afsluitdijk and would allow all Calais - Netherlands traffic to avoid the nightmare that is Antwerp.
And while we’re at it, why don’t we extend the A19 north of Ypres???
Peter350 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 22:05
More ambitious but i’ve always thought they should extend the Belgian A18 east of Jabbeke and join it up with an extension of the Dutch A58 from Middelburg, incorporating the Knooke-heist section of A11 along the way. It could cross the Westerschelde via a new barrage similar to the Afsluitdijk and would allow all Calais - Netherlands traffic to avoid the nightmare that is Antwerp.
Peter350 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 22:05
And while we’re at it, why don’t we extend the A19 north of Ypres???
Yeah, Owen b is right to post that link above... apparently the A19 will now *never* be finished. I gather that the prospect of any extension was definitively canned by the regional government a few years ago. I forgot to mention that the road's current (and now presumably permanent) terminus north-east of Ypres/Ieper features, exactly like the northernmost part of the British M23, a 'bridge to nowhere' that will now never be used. They always look rather lost and forlorn, I think...
However, on the plus side, that means many folk are dissuaded from following the A18/N8/N38/A19/A17 route from Veurne to Marquain (as it involves leaving the motorways) and so the route remains a lightly trafficked but useful cut-through. And, as explained above, when we drive on it, the non-motorway bit seems to come at just the right time anyway...
Calling at Wickham Bishops, Langford & Ulting, Maldon West, Barons Lane Halt, Cold Norton, Stow St Mary, and Woodham Ferrers...
In Maastricht after a 6 hr slog from Calais.. keeping up with the tradition of **** hitting fan when I plan something.
Hottest temperature in History, slip road closed to take me on Owain route with a twist, I decided to head for the "Hell of the North" ie Brussels ring road. Crashes, breakdowns, overheated cars, roadworks, crash debris still on a carriageway, and the beginning of Belgium national holiday when everyone hit the road,, a service station with no toilets, had to hop over a fence into a field. Just about sums up my trip. Fingers crossed for Sundays trip home.
Oh no... I didn't realise your trip was going to be during the heatwave...!
Do you recall where the slip road was that was closed? I'm heading that way myself in a few weeks on the way to Germany again... it'd be great to get some advance knowledge if you can remember where the road closure was...
Calling at Wickham Bishops, Langford & Ulting, Maldon West, Barons Lane Halt, Cold Norton, Stow St Mary, and Woodham Ferrers...
the slip road closure only looked a temporary one, but enough to throw me off course,,,i gambled on Brussels and lost,,,did the return via Brussels ring this morning,,, no problem 3..45 hrs to Calais.
Thanks all,,,,
PS...use the big wrench
DUSTY ROADS wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2019 16:21 In Maastricht after a 6 hr slog from Calais.. keeping up with the tradition of **** hitting fan when I plan something.
Hottest temperature in History, slip road closed to take me on Owain route with a twist, I decided to head for the "Hell of the North" ie Brussels ring road. Crashes, breakdowns, overheated cars, roadworks, crash debris still on a carriageway, and the beginning of Belgium national holiday when everyone hit the road,, a service station with no toilets, had to hop over a fence into a field. Just about sums up my trip. Fingers crossed for Sundays trip home.
Owain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 09:55on one trip through Belgium, I saw three accidents in one day
Don't say I didn't warn you!
Amazing how much damage a closed slip road can make to the best laid plans...
