Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Going on holiday? Just returned with pictures or news? Found an interesting website? Post everything international in here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by roadtester »

Owain wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 22:07 Even though the numbers have changed completely, my theory about the Polish A4 gaining its number from the German one is not disproven by this older list!!
Yes - the old A4 has the following description:
reserviert für Berliner Ring – Cottbus/Grenze PL
which translates as "reserved for the Berlin Ring - Cottbus/border PL" in which PL presumably refers to Poland.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Bryn666 »

roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by roadtester »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:13
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.
Although I lived there at the time as a child my memory on this is a bit hazy but actually I think you are probably right.

My recollection is that before the current numbers came in, autobahns were normally referred to by start-point and end-point, i.e. "Autobahn town A/town B", so the old numbers must have performed more of a internal planning/administrative function.

I do know a few older German people who are interested enough in motoring that they might remember, so next time I have the opportunity, I will ask!

That said, I suppose going from no numbers to a system in which numbers are comprehensively signed is still a big undertaking, albeit one less open to confusion/complication than a wholesale renumbering!
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Bryn666 »

roadtester wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:19
Bryn666 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:13
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.
Although I lived there at the time as a child my memory on this is a bit hazy but actually I think you are probably right.

My recollection is that before the current numbers came in, autobahns were normally referred to by start-point and end-point, i.e. "Autobahn town A/town B", so the old numbers must have performed more of a internal planning/administrative function.

I do know a few older German people who are interested enough in motoring that they might remember, so next time I have the opportunity, I will ask!

That said, I suppose going from no numbers to a system in which numbers are comprehensively signed is still a big undertaking, albeit one less open to confusion/complication than a wholesale renumbering!
I've seen a few pictures when trawling Google historically, generally numbers were just stuck onto existing signs and replaced fully later on. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildtafel ... childerung

http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Bild ... essler.jpg
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by roadtester »

I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.

I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Bryn666 »

Quite possibly a factor, I suspect similar reasons to why France dropped naming junctions and went to numbers - it seems to correlate with 107.7FM going online.

Of course East Germany didn't use route numbers on autobahns either, other than the occasional E number stuck on a Transit route.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26212
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Owain »

roadtester wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.

I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Andy P
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 19:17
Location: Heidelberg, Germany

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Andy P »

My recollection from visiting Germany before the 1970s (I didn't live there then) is that the main motorways were signed extensively using the then E numbers.

I always had the suspicion (though I haven't been able to verify it) that one of the reasons for introducing the new German motorway numbering system was that they were increasingly building motorways with no trans-European significance, so that E numbers would not be given.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by roadtester »

Andy P wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:21 My recollection from visiting Germany before the 1970s (I didn't live there then) is that the main motorways were signed extensively using the then E numbers.

I always had the suspicion (though I haven't been able to verify it) that one of the reasons for introducing the new German motorway numbering system was that they were increasingly building motorways with no trans-European significance, so that E numbers would not be given.
Yes, I’m not sure about the second point but it does have a certain logic to it - certainly the E numbers were prominent, as they are in some other countries, e.g. Belgium seems to like them especially.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
RichardA626
Member
Posts: 7811
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 22:19
Location: Stockport
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by RichardA626 »

Owain wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 08:20
roadtester wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.

I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.
I've heard that a few West German systems, including number plates & postcodes were designed to include East Germany if any future re-unification would happen.

When this came there needed to be a bit of tweaking to get things to fit as the systems had strayed from their original allocations.
Beware of the trickster on the roof
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 08:20
roadtester wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.

I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.
Rumour abounds East Germany had kept the original Hitler era numbering with a view to re-using it when the inevitable collapse of the West happened... I'm sure that was priority one on Erich Honecker's to do pile.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31476
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by roadtester »

RichardA626 wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 13:28 I've heard that a few West German systems, including number plates & postcodes were designed to include East Germany if any future re-unification would happen.

When this came there needed to be a bit of tweaking to get things to fit as the systems had strayed from their original allocations.
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 18:42 Rumour abounds East Germany had kept the original Hitler era numbering with a view to re-using it when the inevitable collapse of the West happened... I'm sure that was priority one on Erich Honecker's to do pile.
In the West, the constitution itself was a Basic Law, the provisional status of which pending unification* was recognised, with the possible accession of new Laender explicitly catered for.

Other systems often followed suit. AIUI the post 1974 numbering system allocates numbers according to whether they are east west or north south routes, a system that could clearly be adapted either to a continuing West Germany or a unified Germany.

It has to be said, though, that leaving scope in law and administrative arrangements for East Germany to join the West was probably often about the West making a statement that it refused to accept the division of Germany, rather than in genuine anticipation of unification, which was for the most part regarded as being at best only an extremely remote prospect.

* unification is a more neutral and appropriate term than reunification because reunification is usually implies the more controversial concept of a return to the pre-1945 borders of Germany, rather than the mere union of the old BRD and DDR.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Bryn666 »

https://www.wegenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=13950

Some more good old photos from Marcel M are discussed in the link above. Shows the early efforts to include autobahn numbers on old signs very well.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Andy P
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 19:17
Location: Heidelberg, Germany

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Andy P »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 19:42 https://www.wegenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=13950

Some more good old photos from Marcel M are discussed in the link above. Shows the early efforts to include autobahn numbers on old signs very well.
Some very interesting photos there.

A few are from the time before the new numbering system was introduced, showing only E numbers for motorways.

Particularly interesting are a couple from the old East Germany.
roadtester wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 19:21 AIUI the post 1974 numbering system allocates numbers according to whether they are east west or north south routes, a system that could clearly be adapted either to a continuing West Germany or a unified Germany.

It has to be said, though, that leaving scope in law and administrative arrangements for East Germany to join the West was probably often about the West making a statement that it refused to accept the division of Germany, rather than in genuine anticipation of unification, which was for the most part regarded as being at best only an extremely remote prospect.
In general, odd numbers are north-south and even numbers east-west.

Ax numbers are the main routes across Germany.

Axx and Axxx are based on regions. As Owain pointed out, A1x and A1xx are in the east, centred on Berlin.

This system must indeed have been decided with regard to the possibility of eventual unification, or, as roadtester points out, a political statement about the division of Germany.

Interestingly, there is a degree of correlation between the motorway numbering zones and the postcode zones (e.g. I live in zone 6 for both), but they are by no means identical.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26212
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Owain »

Andy P wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:44Interestingly, there is a degree of correlation between the motorway numbering zones and the postcode zones (e.g. I live in zone 6 for both), but they are by no means identical.
There is a similar pattern - if not a correlation - between the SS (strade statali) and telephone dialling codes in Italy. Beyond Turin the road and telephone codes do not match, but nationally similar principles apply to the numbers issued: basically they start in the north-west, and zig-zag east-to-west while heading from north to south.

The main exceptions are:

1. that the F8 SS roads do centralise on Rome (it's from SS10 onwards that the above principle applies), while the telephone code for Rome is not 01, but 06, which reflects its geographical position, and

2. that there is a divergence between the SS numbers (which proceed down the peninsula before crossing over to Sicily and then Sardinia) and the phone codes south of Rome (where Cagliari in Sardinia takes 070 ahead of Naples, which takes 081).
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
IJP1
Member
Posts: 749
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 17:56
Location: Bangor, Northern Ireland
Contact:

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by IJP1 »

You can see that they didn't have numbers on the old signs even on some signs which still exist (where there is literally no room for them, so they get shoved on above or in a corner somewhere). This is also why there are so many TOTSOs, as the number just follows the route on the map but takes no account of turn-offs for other Autobahnen.
-------------------------
Ian P. (IJP1)
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5676
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Strecke 46 - Abandoned Autobahn

Post by Vierwielen »

RichardA626 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 13:58
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:20 Remember many of the autobahns followed sub-optimal routes as Hitler envisioned them as tourist parkways like in America that people could enjoy as part as Strength Through Joy. The idea of them being commuter routes was not on the cards. Even as military routes they were undesirable; the railways were for that.

The Germans should not be ashamed of the fact that bad people created good infrastructure. That's the "Hitler Liked Dogs, So Dogs Are Evil" fallacy. This could easily be a tourist attraction detailing how the current German motorway network evolved.
Same with Napoleon building the Rues Nationals, though at least they linked France's largest towns & cities.
And Napoleon overhauled the French administrative system and local government boundaries, both of which are still in use today.
Post Reply