Yes - the old A4 has the following description:
which translates as "reserved for the Berlin Ring - Cottbus/border PL" in which PL presumably refers to Poland.reserviert für Berliner Ring – Cottbus/Grenze PL
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Yes - the old A4 has the following description:
which translates as "reserved for the Berlin Ring - Cottbus/border PL" in which PL presumably refers to Poland.reserviert für Berliner Ring – Cottbus/Grenze PL
Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
Although I lived there at the time as a child my memory on this is a bit hazy but actually I think you are probably right.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:13Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
I've seen a few pictures when trawling Google historically, generally numbers were just stuck onto existing signs and replaced fully later on. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildtafel ... childerungroadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:19Although I lived there at the time as a child my memory on this is a bit hazy but actually I think you are probably right.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:13Autobahn numbers didn't appear on signs until the changeover though, which is why they could change them so easily. Now it would be a total nightmare to do.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 21:53 So next time someone on SABRE says that a renumbering suggestion is impractical because of e.g. the number of signs that would have to be changed, tell them that Germany renumbered its whole motorway system!
My recollection is that before the current numbers came in, autobahns were normally referred to by start-point and end-point, i.e. "Autobahn town A/town B", so the old numbers must have performed more of a internal planning/administrative function.
I do know a few older German people who are interested enough in motoring that they might remember, so next time I have the opportunity, I will ask!
That said, I suppose going from no numbers to a system in which numbers are comprehensively signed is still a big undertaking, albeit one less open to confusion/complication than a wholesale renumbering!
It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.
I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
Yes, I’m not sure about the second point but it does have a certain logic to it - certainly the E numbers were prominent, as they are in some other countries, e.g. Belgium seems to like them especially.Andy P wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:21 My recollection from visiting Germany before the 1970s (I didn't live there then) is that the main motorways were signed extensively using the then E numbers.
I always had the suspicion (though I haven't been able to verify it) that one of the reasons for introducing the new German motorway numbering system was that they were increasingly building motorways with no trans-European significance, so that E numbers would not be given.
I've heard that a few West German systems, including number plates & postcodes were designed to include East Germany if any future re-unification would happen.Owain wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 08:20It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.
I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
Rumour abounds East Germany had kept the original Hitler era numbering with a view to re-using it when the inevitable collapse of the West happened... I'm sure that was priority one on Erich Honecker's to do pile.Owain wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 08:20It's interesting then that East Germany pretty much corresponds to what we might call Germany's 1 zone. The 1974 numbering was presumably done with the A1x numbers reserved in anticipation of a future re-unification, even though there would have been little sign of such event at that stage.roadtester wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 14:47 I did a bit of German googling and found another couple of snippets. One is a forum post that says even the old system of numbers was only introduced in the sixties and only used internally. Also, the system was based on the 1937 borders and based on the principle of routes radiating from Berlin, which was obviously a bit odd for the then West Germany.
I also saw one suggestion that the 1974 numbering may have been linked to the introduction of the ARI traffic information system for radio the same year, with the numbers making it easier to make concise announcements identifying where jams and other problems were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahre ... ionssystem
RichardA626 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 13:28 I've heard that a few West German systems, including number plates & postcodes were designed to include East Germany if any future re-unification would happen.
When this came there needed to be a bit of tweaking to get things to fit as the systems had strayed from their original allocations.
In the West, the constitution itself was a Basic Law, the provisional status of which pending unification* was recognised, with the possible accession of new Laender explicitly catered for.
Some very interesting photos there.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 19:42 https://www.wegenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=13950
Some more good old photos from Marcel M are discussed in the link above. Shows the early efforts to include autobahn numbers on old signs very well.
In general, odd numbers are north-south and even numbers east-west.roadtester wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 19:21 AIUI the post 1974 numbering system allocates numbers according to whether they are east west or north south routes, a system that could clearly be adapted either to a continuing West Germany or a unified Germany.
It has to be said, though, that leaving scope in law and administrative arrangements for East Germany to join the West was probably often about the West making a statement that it refused to accept the division of Germany, rather than in genuine anticipation of unification, which was for the most part regarded as being at best only an extremely remote prospect.
There is a similar pattern - if not a correlation - between the SS (strade statali) and telephone dialling codes in Italy. Beyond Turin the road and telephone codes do not match, but nationally similar principles apply to the numbers issued: basically they start in the north-west, and zig-zag east-to-west while heading from north to south.
And Napoleon overhauled the French administrative system and local government boundaries, both of which are still in use today.RichardA626 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 13:58Same with Napoleon building the Rues Nationals, though at least they linked France's largest towns & cities.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:20 Remember many of the autobahns followed sub-optimal routes as Hitler envisioned them as tourist parkways like in America that people could enjoy as part as Strength Through Joy. The idea of them being commuter routes was not on the cards. Even as military routes they were undesirable; the railways were for that.
The Germans should not be ashamed of the fact that bad people created good infrastructure. That's the "Hitler Liked Dogs, So Dogs Are Evil" fallacy. This could easily be a tourist attraction detailing how the current German motorway network evolved.