Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Vierwielen
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Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Vierwielen »

The Dutch have taken a decision to reduce the speed limit on motorways from 130 km/h to 100 km/h. This follows a court ruling that the Dutch Government need to take steps to reduce air pollution. Speeds of up to 130 km/h will however still be permitted between 19:00 and 06:00 (when there is very little traffic on the roads).
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Vierwielen wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 21:18 The Dutch have taken a decision to reduce the speed limit on motorways from 130 km/h to 100 km/h. This follows a court ruling that the Dutch Government need to take steps to reduce air pollution. Speeds of up to 130 km/h will however still be permitted between 19:00 and 06:00 (when there is very little traffic on the roads).
My crystal ball suggests it'll happen in the UK eventually.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Truvelo »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 22:12 My crystal ball suggests it'll happen in the UK eventually.
Unless every single section of motorway will have full time Specs monitoring there isn't a hope in hell's chance of it being adhered to :@
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by AutomaticBeloved »

Well at least it won't affect my next trip through NL - I'm not driving and the vehicle has a 100km/h limiter :laugh:
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Another case of woolly thinking that makes the law morally questionable from the beginning.

If reducing the speed of ICE vehicles on motorways has a measurable effect on improving air quality, then fine - within reason (and sure, 130 to 100 km/h would pass that test) go ahead and reduce the speed and improve air quality. (But I doubt anyone can be certain of the effect until the reduction is tested in real life, so the authorities should always be open to the possibility it has no effect and reverse the decision.)

But it stands to reason that if the purpose of the measure is to improve air quality, it should not apply to electric vehicles. I have seen nothing in any of the coverage of this that mentions any exemptions.

I also wonder to what extent the advantage of using the motorway versus local roads will be reduced, resulting in greater use of local roads. This might still improve air quality, if traffic doing say 80 km/h on a local road harms air quality less than the same vehicle doing 130 on the motorway, but it might cause other side-effects related to safety, noise and congestion in populated areas.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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FosseWay wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:50 Another case of woolly thinking that makes the law morally questionable from the beginning.

If reducing the speed of ICE vehicles on motorways has a measurable effect on improving air quality, then fine - within reason (and sure, 130 to 100 km/h would pass that test) go ahead and reduce the speed and improve air quality. (But I doubt anyone can be certain of the effect until the reduction is tested in real life, so the authorities should always be open to the possibility it has no effect and reverse the decision.)

But it stands to reason that if the purpose of the measure is to improve air quality, it should not apply to electric vehicles. I have seen nothing in any of the coverage of this that mentions any exemptions.

I also wonder to what extent the advantage of using the motorway versus local roads will be reduced, resulting in greater use of local roads. This might still improve air quality, if traffic doing say 80 km/h on a local road harms air quality less than the same vehicle doing 130 on the motorway, but it might cause other side-effects related to safety, noise and congestion in populated areas.
Good luck using Dutch local roads to bypass motorways - they redesign them to prevent that.

EVs still create particulate pollution, just not from exhaust. Tyre dust is still an issue, but speed limits don't affect this as far as I can tell as it is still generated no matter what. From a traffic management point of view, restricting one class of car and not another is a bad idea - differential speed limits between HGVs and cars make sense but car vs car is just asking for road rage incidents when some prat in a diesel Audi speeding doesn't recognise the electric vehicle in front might not want to drive at 130.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:17 From a traffic management point of view, restricting one class of car and not another is a bad idea - differential speed limits between HGVs and cars make sense but car vs car is just asking for road rage incidents when some prat in a diesel Audi speeding doesn't recognise the electric vehicle in front might not want to drive at 130.
If anything, wouldn't the problem be the other way round - EV drivers allowed to do 130 being frustrated by ICE vehicles restricted to 100? The scenario you mention - someone who feels the speed limit is too low and ignores it - exists already anywhere with a speed limit, and it gets more of an issue the more you reduce the limit below either the road's design speed or the speed that "your average driver" perceives as reasonable. This argues against the Dutch speed restriction for *any* cars rather than specifically against different limits for different kinds of car, doesn't it?

I would imagine restricting cars to 100 will present some problems with elephant racing and bunching, though, especially if it is rigorously enforced. 100 km/h on my speedo is well down in the 90s in reality, and therefore not much faster than the maximum for HGV limiters to be set to. If I am doing 95 in reality it will take me forever to get past an HGV doing 90; I'd far rather bost off rather than sit alongside a large vehicle in its blind spot.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Bryn666 »

Yes, there's perhaps a degree of that although no idea how fast EVs sustain over long distances anyway.

The main thing is having too many differentials is a bad idea; although looking at several Dutch motorways 100km/h might be ambitious anyway during the day time...
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Vierwielen »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 22:27
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 22:12 My crystal ball suggests it'll happen in the UK eventually.
Unless every single section of motorway will have full time Specs monitoring there isn't a hope in hell's chance of it being adhered to :@
I saw a draconian speed limit implementation in South Africa during the various oil crises of the 1970's. They enforced the speed limit with draconian fines. This had the added effect of people saying "Is it really worth spending that amountof time on driving to X when I don't really need to (such as the 600 km drive from Johannesburg to Durban for a weekend).
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 13:42 Yes, there's perhaps a degree of that although no idea how fast EVs sustain over long distances anyway.
My boss is quite happy setting the cruise control to 130 on his Tesla for miles... What electric cars that are more realistic for the rest of us manage, I don't know.
The main thing is having too many differentials is a bad idea; although looking at several Dutch motorways 100km/h might be ambitious anyway during the day time...
You have a point there. When I drove to/from the UK last Easter, the traffic between Hook of Holland and the western end of the Afsluitdijk was appalling in both directions.

Mind you, if that is remotely normal for daytime, you have to wonder what good the reduction will do. Cutting the volume of traffic would surely be a better approach.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by PeterA5145 »

Has anyone done an economic impact assessment for this move?
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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FosseWay wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 19:29
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 13:42 Yes, there's perhaps a degree of that although no idea how fast EVs sustain over long distances anyway.
My boss is quite happy setting the cruise control to 130 on his Tesla for miles... What electric cars that are more realistic for the rest of us manage, I don't know.
The main thing is having too many differentials is a bad idea; although looking at several Dutch motorways 100km/h might be ambitious anyway during the day time...
You have a point there. When I drove to/from the UK last Easter, the traffic between Hook of Holland and the western end of the Afsluitdijk was appalling in both directions.

Mind you, if that is remotely normal for daytime, you have to wonder what good the reduction will do. Cutting the volume of traffic would surely be a better approach.
You're talking about the most densely populated area of western Europe, Noord-Holland, Zuid-Holland and Utrecht provinces. It's sometimes considered to be one single extented city area, the Randstad. How you reduce the amount of traffic is a very good question, and please remember that there are already high levels of cycling.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by RichardA35 »

A better question is "how do you improve the health of the population of those areas?"
Once you assess the effects of any interventions whether transport related or otherwise and monetise the forecast health benefits against the cost of the intervention, then you can probably see why the measure has been introduced.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by fras »

Yeah, lets go down to 20 kph everywhere then everybody will be fit and healthy, apart from those starving to death from lack of food.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by RichardA35 »

fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 00:24 Yeah, lets go down to 20 kph everywhere then everybody will be fit and healthy, apart from those starving to death from lack of food.
The monetised disbenefit of such a policy to economic activity would need to be assessed in a range of possible options and would probably score badly so I guess would not be implemented.
Perhaps a more considered comment might be helpful to mature debate?
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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RichardA35 wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 07:38
fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 00:24 Yeah, lets go down to 20 kph everywhere then everybody will be fit and healthy, apart from those starving to death from lack of food.
The monetised disbenefit of such a policy to economic activity would need to be assessed in a range of possible options and would probably score badly so I guess would not be implemented.
Perhaps a more considered comment might be helpful to mature debate?
Well, sorry, but it seems to me that we've got into a state of utter insanity on speed limits at the moment. Lets assume electrification is successful and all vehicles on the Dutch motorways are electric. Will the limit then be raised back up ? I don't think so. It is just pandering to a small minority who want to go back to the horse age. That horse age could only support about half the population we now have, hence my comment on starvation.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Burns »

There's a grand canyon sized leap between doing ~60mph on a crowded Dutch motorway compared to going back to horse & cart. Just saying.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16
RichardA35 wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 07:38
fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 00:24 Yeah, lets go down to 20 kph everywhere then everybody will be fit and healthy, apart from those starving to death from lack of food.
The monetised disbenefit of such a policy to economic activity would need to be assessed in a range of possible options and would probably score badly so I guess would not be implemented.
Perhaps a more considered comment might be helpful to mature debate?
Well, sorry, but it seems to me that we've got into a state of utter insanity on speed limits at the moment. Lets assume electrification is successful and all vehicles on the Dutch motorways are electric. Will the limit then be raised back up ? I don't think so. It is just pandering to a small minority who want to go back to the horse age. That horse age could only support about half the population we now have, hence my comment on starvation.
There is a perception gap here as a lot of motorists believe they are free or have the right to carry on without a second thought about the effects of the vehicles on the wider world behind the boundary fence.
Governmental bodies are charged with improvement of health of the whole population and if one of the tools at their disposal is to change the speeds of traffic then they will use that tool provided the benefit is forecast to be achieved as desired.
The driving community will have to take on board that they have no entitlement to carry on as before but that the speed limits on a particular road are subject to consent of the wider community who are looking at a bigger picture of the health of their community.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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A few years ago, I’d have thought this was barmy but my attitude today would be that if a 100km/h limit on motorways makes travel safer and the air cleaner, I could easily live with it. Car drivers really need to go with the flow when it comes to cleaning up the planet and improving quality of life, and like 20 limits in residential areas, a motorway limit of this sort isn’t really a huge price to pay to continue to have the convenience of otherwise relatively free, unrestricted use of a car.

I think electrification will lead to lower average speeds on motorways in the long run anyway as you can really increase your range by going a bit slower. Also, because engine noise is effectively absent, you have no aural signal that you are dawdling if you do decide to cruise at, say, 50 or 60, which can feel as comfortable as 70.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:23 I think electrification will lead to lower average speeds on motorways in the long run anyway as you can really increase your range by going a bit slower.
The high taxation cost through fuel duty does little to reduce speeds of petrol/diesel cars so I don't see EVs being any different.
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