Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:36
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:23 I think electrification will lead to lower average speeds on motorways in the long run anyway as you can really increase your range by going a bit slower.
The high taxation cost through fuel duty does little to reduce speeds of petrol/diesel cars so I don't see EVs being any different.
It's not the cost - it's the convenience. It probably saves time to go a bit slower if you can use less juice and save a recharging stop.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:41
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:36
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:23 I think electrification will lead to lower average speeds on motorways in the long run anyway as you can really increase your range by going a bit slower.
The high taxation cost through fuel duty does little to reduce speeds of petrol/diesel cars so I don't see EVs being any different.
It's not the cost - it's the convenience. It probably saves time to go a bit slower if you can use less juice and save a recharging stop.
I can't see that catching on!
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:41
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:36
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:23 I think electrification will lead to lower average speeds on motorways in the long run anyway as you can really increase your range by going a bit slower.
The high taxation cost through fuel duty does little to reduce speeds of petrol/diesel cars so I don't see EVs being any different.
It's not the cost - it's the convenience. It probably saves time to go a bit slower if you can use less juice and save a recharging stop.
I think that will lead to people thinking more about their cruising speed on a specific journey. If you can manage the whole of your journey in one charge if you drive at 100 km/h but not if you do 130, then I can well imagine you deciding to drive more slowly. If, however, your journey is short enough that you can complete it in one charge regardless of how fast or enthusiastically you drive, it will probably make even less of a difference to your behaviour than it currently does with ICE vehicles. And battery range is improving all the time - I think it's getting on for 800 km at optimum driving speed and conditions, which is about the same as I get from a tank of petrol. I may be atypical, but the number of journeys I make where I would need to refuel before I stop for the day anyway, presuming I start with a full tank, is in low single figures per year.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16 It is just pandering to a small minority who want to go back to the horse age. That horse age could only support about half the population we now have, hence my comment on starvation.
When the Dutch Prime Minister made the announcement, he did so with regret saying that it, or some othe rdrastic measure was forced on him by the Dutch courts because the density of traffic was breaching EU clean air regulations. Thus, if the car industry can sort out the polution problems, they can have the higher speed limits back.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 19:04
fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16 It is just pandering to a small minority who want to go back to the horse age. That horse age could only support about half the population we now have, hence my comment on starvation.
When the Dutch Prime Minister made the announcement, he did so with regret saying that it, or some othe rdrastic measure was forced on him by the Dutch courts because the density of traffic was breaching EU clean air regulations. Thus, if the car industry can sort out the polution problems, they can have the higher speed limits back.
Is this going to be across the kingdom? The rural parts of Friesland, Drenthe, Flevoland, and Groningen are going to almost painful at 100 if people are used to 130 +
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 22:12
Vierwielen wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 21:18 The Dutch have taken a decision to reduce the speed limit on motorways from 130 km/h to 100 km/h. This follows a court ruling that the Dutch Government need to take steps to reduce air pollution. Speeds of up to 130 km/h will however still be permitted between 19:00 and 06:00 (when there is very little traffic on the roads).
My crystal ball suggests it'll happen in the UK eventually.
Kind of happening already - the M1 through Derbyshire up to Sheffield seems to be set at 60 for most of the working day.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by c2R »

It's also pretty much universally ignored, with slowing down for the speed cameras - much like the A556(should be M) link...
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Protest against the plan cancelled due to apparent lack of interest
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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exiled wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 21:09
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 19:04
fras wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16 It is just pandering to a small minority who want to go back to the horse age. That horse age could only support about half the population we now have, hence my comment on starvation.
When the Dutch Prime Minister made the announcement, he did so with regret saying that it, or some othe rdrastic measure was forced on him by the Dutch courts because the density of traffic was breaching EU clean air regulations. Thus, if the car industry can sort out the polution problems, they can have the higher speed limits back.
Is this going to be across the kingdom? The rural parts of Friesland, Drenthe, Flevoland, and Groningen are going to almost painful at 100 if people are used to 130 +
A number of years ago, the Dutch had a speed limit of 100 km/h when most of the Continent had a speed limit of 120 km/h. Even though my grandfather was born in Friesland (see flag at the left), I do not know how much opposition there will be in those provinces. I do know that the ethic in the Netherlands is one of tolerance in respect of what you do in the confines of your own home, but an expectation of conformance when in public as this is the only way in which a country with a traditional liberal outlook, but a high population density can function.

The Dutch are also very pragmatic - two small instances that I am aware of: when the euro was introduced, in most countries you could go to your bank where you could buy a pack of euro coins for an amount of between £5 and £10 (depending on the local currency). The Dutch did things differently - every household received a pack of Dutch euro coins via the post. Another pragmatic approach is that when a pensioner dies, their estate receives two monthly pension payments after the death of the pensioner (unlike the UK where they try to calw back the overpayment). This is both simpler to manage and also ensures that there is a bit of money in the pot for the funeral. The Dutch philosophy is that everybody will eventually benefit from both the arrangements described above so there is no harm in it being funded by taxes to which everybody contribute.

I have also read that the Frieslanders are particularly independently minded - this was illustrated by the fact that before the war about 10% of the Dutch were members of hard-left political parties and about 10% were members of hard-right political parties - in Friesland the figures were 20% in each direction.

We have yet to see how these attitudes affect Dutch motorists.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:34 [Another pragmatic approach is that when a pensioner dies, their estate receives two monthly pension payments after the death of the pensioner (unlike the UK where they try to calw back the overpayment). This is both simpler to manage and also ensures that there is a bit of money in the pot for the funeral. The Dutch philosophy is that everybody will eventually benefit from both the arrangements described above so there is no harm in it being funded by taxes to which everybody contribute.
This concept is not unknown in the UK, a few of our benefits (such as Carer’s Allowance and Tax Credits) already do this. And as you say, it would be much better and more dignified for the family than our current process of claiming a funeral payment (I would be surprised if even 5% of applicants get it).
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Berk wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 19:40
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:34 [Another pragmatic approach is that when a pensioner dies, their estate receives two monthly pension payments after the death of the pensioner (unlike the UK where they try to calw back the overpayment). This is both simpler to manage and also ensures that there is a bit of money in the pot for the funeral. The Dutch philosophy is that everybody will eventually benefit from both the arrangements described above so there is no harm in it being funded by taxes to which everybody contribute.
This concept is not unknown in the UK, a few of our benefits (such as Carer’s Allowance and Tax Credits) already do this. And as you say, it would be much better and more dignified for the family than our current process of claiming a funeral payment (I would be surprised if even 5% of applicants get it).
When my brother-in-law died, I checked the position for claiming a funeral benefit (he was a waste of space who had lived off benefits most of his life and his total estate after funeral costs came to £250). Since he had at least one close relative (my wife) who was not claiming any benefits, we did not even bother trying. His estate was in the black only because I managed to get all his creditors to write off his debts.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Yep, that’s pretty much it. I think a loan system would be more helpful to many, because the funeral bill has to be paid up front, whether you get a payment or not.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Getting back on topic: This seems like an easy way to make quick money from fines. Why? Well, most drivers on motorways even in Ireland tend to do around 120 - 130 km/h because their mind considers it a safe speed. Even on the German autobahn, most drivers do around 130 km/h. Reducing the speed limit won't affect the average speed that much as 130 km/h is still the safe speed. And more people 30 km/h over the limit = more fines = more money.

Also, diesels tend to produce more pollution in slow stop-and-go traffic, so why not ban that instead?
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:58
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:41
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 13:36

The high taxation cost through fuel duty does little to reduce speeds of petrol/diesel cars so I don't see EVs being any different.
It's not the cost - it's the convenience. It probably saves time to go a bit slower if you can use less juice and save a recharging stop.
I can't see that catching on!
There’s plenty of ICE powered drivers already doing it, it will be second nature to them if they switch to EVs.

The single carriageway A16 from Spalding to the Lincolnshire/Peterborough border is SPECS enforced so most travel it in long queues with the speed obviously set by the one at the front, it’s not usually a HGV sat on their limiter but a car driver doing 50ish. No one dare overtake as they haven’t got a clue what effect it will have on their average speed so the queue remains static until they get to the end of the enforced section. It’s great if you join at one of the intermediate junctions and get out in front of the train, you’re pretty much guaranteed an empty road for the next few miles with nothing in front or behind.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:34 I do know that the ethic in the Netherlands is one of tolerance in respect of what you do in the confines of your own home, but an expectation of conformance when in public as this is the only way in which a country with a traditional liberal outlook, but a high population density can function.
Sweden has a similar approach, so it need not be driven by population density (there are more people within the M25 than in the whole of Sweden).

However, it only works so long as the public perception of a given restriction is that it is "worth it". In most cases, the normal presumption is to trust people to behave sensibly in normal circumstances but impose clear and well-enforced restrictions when circumstances warrant it. This is the case, for example, with lighting fires. There is a strong tradition of outdoor life here, with wild camping during hikes or while hunting being both legal and popular. It follows that people expect to be able to light a fire to cook on, see by and keep the midges at bay. Most of the time this isn't a problem and people are responsible about where they do it. When you get very hot, dry summers, there is a serious risk of huge forest fires and all outdoor fire is forbidden. People by and large respect this.

Speed limit policy is notable for going against the grain of this trust philosophy. Instead of allowing people to drive to the conditions except in very specific high-risk places, the non-motorway network is riddled with extremely low limits (the default for S2s is 70 km/h and the 50 limit in urban areas is a dying breed, being increasingly replaced by 40 and 30). And, perhaps unsurprisingly, speed limits are not only universally ignored unless there is enforcement visible, but they are exceeded by percentages that I have never encountered anywhere else. It is common to have a platoon on an S2 - whose speed is regulated by the slowest vehicle - doing over 100 on a 70 stretch. 120 on a 70 near me is far from uncommon.

The expectation of conformity in public life works fine so long as most people are convinced of its usefulness, but as soon as the imposers of the restrictions abuse their position, the situation flips suddenly and drastically.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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FosseWay wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:39 It is common to have a platoon on an S2 - whose speed is regulated by the slowest vehicle - doing over 100 on a 70 stretch. 120 on a 70 near me is far from uncommon.
Based on my experiences in Norway, the 80km/h is reasonably well followed (probably because all their mountain roads are anything but straight unless they're in a tunnel). I have noticed that where possible, the speed most people aim for tends to be 90km/h. On my first two visits, I pretty much stuck to the 80km/h but when I go over now, unless the roads are actively controlled, I'll probably do around 90km/h where I can as well as it saves me from having to pull over all the time to let people past.

I'm hoping to visit Sweden next year as part of a round trip around Denmark, Sweden and Norway so it'll be good to compare all the driving styles. I plan on stopping off in Gothenburg so I may give you a shout nearer the time for Sabristic recommendations in the area.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Burns wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 19:04
FosseWay wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:39 It is common to have a platoon on an S2 - whose speed is regulated by the slowest vehicle - doing over 100 on a 70 stretch. 120 on a 70 near me is far from uncommon.
Based on my experiences in Norway, the 80km/h is reasonably well followed (probably because all their mountain roads are anything but straight unless they're in a tunnel). I have noticed that where possible, the speed most people aim for tends to be 90km/h. On my first two visits, I pretty much stuck to the 80km/h but when I go over now, unless the roads are actively controlled, I'll probably do around 90km/h where I can as well as it saves me from having to pull over all the time to let people past.

I'm hoping to visit Sweden next year as part of a round trip around Denmark, Sweden and Norway so it'll be good to compare all the driving styles. I plan on stopping off in Gothenburg so I may give you a shout nearer the time for Sabristic recommendations in the area.
Most of Sweden is a lot flatter than most of Norway, but the areas that are at all habitable are often much more sparsely inhabited. As a result there are a lot of standard issue S2s that have good straights and no serious gradients, but with what seem to my eyes very low speed limits.

Do drop me a line if you're in Gothenburg - either to meet up or to get recommendations. For the sheer WTH factor, I can recommend something that you're almost bound to drive past by default if you come down the west coast: the bridge pillar in the middle of the carriageway on the E6.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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the imposers of the restrictions abuse their position,
And don't they just enjoy doing so !
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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dereer wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:39 Getting back on topic: This seems like an easy way to make quick money from fines. Why? Well, most drivers on motorways even in Ireland tend to do around 120 - 130 km/h because their mind considers it a safe speed. Even on the German autobahn, most drivers do around 130 km/h. Reducing the speed limit won't affect the average speed that much as 130 km/h is still the safe speed. And more people 30 km/h over the limit = more fines = more money.

Also, diesels tend to produce more pollution in slow stop-and-go traffic, so why not ban that instead?
If the government starts to impose more fines for speeding then drivers will quickly learn that it is not worth the risk of speeding and so will slow down.

Stop—start traffic is impossible to ban. Reducing the maximum speed is a good way to go about it, though ... if roads suffer from congestion then lowering the speed limit can reduce differentials, which helps drivers to maintain a steady gap and so reduces bunching. That's why variable speed limits are used on an increasing number of motorways.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Ontario and Quebec in Canada have 100 km/h limits, and if Canada's Worst Driver is anything to go on the default limit tends to be 120. CBC has a news video on YouTube when British Columbia increased its limit on some freeways from 100 to 120 km/h.

The problem with a 100 limit on the roads which have had 120 or 130 is it will feel artificially slow and a de facto 120 will probably come in as FosseWay says about Sweden if there is no enforcement.
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