Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Truvelo »

Surely the resources required to manufacture 4000 signs is just as bad for the environment as traffic travelling at 130?
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Truvelo wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 17:10 Surely the resources required to manufacture 4000 signs is just as bad for the environment as traffic travelling at 130?
Travelling at 130 over what period of time?

Where is the pollution being created in each case?

As is clear from my contributions to this thread so far, I'm far from convinced by this course of action, but it is important to include all obvious aspects in any quantitative argument.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Truvelo wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 17:10 Surely the resources required to manufacture 4000 signs is just as bad for the environment as traffic travelling at 130?
The cost of changing speed limit signs in Ireland from mph to km/h worked out at about €100 per sign - 50,000 signs at €5 million (See here). Assuming the same costs in the Netherlands (adding 50% for inflation), we would get €150 per sign, so the total cost for 4000 signs would be €600,000. There are about 8 million cars in the Netherlands (See here), so the cost per car would work out at €0.13. If there was a 1% reduction in fuel consumption, then this tells me that the motorist would recoup their share of the cost in the first tank of petrol that they buy.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by RJDG14 »

I recall Ireland replacing many 80km/h signs on minor roads with "go slow" signs about 5 years ago.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Glenn A »

So the Dutch are the first country since the 1979 energy crisis to reduce speed limits. I often wonder if states in America like California and Vermont, which have a strong green/left presence, are thinking if the hated 55 mph speed limit could be reintroduced now that states can set their own speed limit again.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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I doubt it. The US motoring lobby, especially the trucking industry, has a strong vocal presence and many states are still increasing speed limits. 55 on many western interstates will feel like a painful crawl.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Glenn A »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 13:21 I doubt it. The US motoring lobby, especially the trucking industry, has a strong vocal presence and many states are still increasing speed limits. 55 on many western interstates will feel like a painful crawl.
The double nickel was widely ignored anyway and many police forces used to allow drivers to go up to 65 mph before they were stopped. However, it is possible a left wing state like Vermont could reintroduce 55 to supposedly save the planet.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Bryn666 »

Truvelo wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 13:21 I doubt it. The US motoring lobby, especially the trucking industry, has a strong vocal presence and many states are still increasing speed limits. 55 on many western interstates will feel like a painful crawl.
They may reduce speed limits in urban areas for air quality purposes but having rural interstates limited to 55 won't happen.

This is nothing to do with fuel economy but air particulates. So saying a rural state like Vermont will drop to 55 again is completely unlikely.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by crazyknightsfan »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:09 So the Dutch are the first country since the 1979 energy crisis to reduce speed limits. I often wonder if states in America like California and Vermont, which have a strong green/left presence, are thinking if the hated 55 mph speed limit could be reintroduced now that states can set their own speed limit again.
There are constant pushes in Western Australia to reduce the rural default limit from 110km/h to 100km/h - all on alleged safety grounds.
The Northern Territory reduced the default open speed limit to 110km/h (with 4 major highways zoned at 130km/h) back in 2007, with a trial of open speed limits again in recent years.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by fras »

crazyknightsfan wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 02:14
Glenn A wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:09 So the Dutch are the first country since the 1979 energy crisis to reduce speed limits. I often wonder if states in America like California and Vermont, which have a strong green/left presence, are thinking if the hated 55 mph speed limit could be reintroduced now that states can set their own speed limit again.
There are constant pushes in Western Australia to reduce the rural default limit from 110km/h to 100km/h - all on alleged safety grounds.
The Northern Territory reduced the default open speed limit to 110km/h (with 4 major highways zoned at 130km/h) back in 2007, with a trial of open speed limits again in recent years.
Just as a reference point, the UK speed limit on motorways and dual-carriageways is 112 kph (70 mph). It is widely ignored even on our "SMART" motorways which have cameras every 1/2 mile. Reason is the police apply an overspeed value before prosecuting. If they whalloped everybody they'd need another 5000 staff (or thereabouts !)
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Vierwielen »

fras wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 20:09
crazyknightsfan wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 02:14
Glenn A wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:09 So the Dutch are the first country since the 1979 energy crisis to reduce speed limits. I often wonder if states in America like California and Vermont, which have a strong green/left presence, are thinking if the hated 55 mph speed limit could be reintroduced now that states can set their own speed limit again.
There are constant pushes in Western Australia to reduce the rural default limit from 110km/h to 100km/h - all on alleged safety grounds.
The Northern Territory reduced the default open speed limit to 110km/h (with 4 major highways zoned at 130km/h) back in 2007, with a trial of open speed limits again in recent years.
Just as a reference point, the UK speed limit on motorways and dual-carriageways is 112 kph (70 mph). It is widely ignored even on our "SMART" motorways which have cameras every 1/2 mile. Reason is the police apply an overspeed value before prosecuting. If they whalloped everybody they'd need another 5000 staff (or thereabouts !)
My experience in South Africa during the fuel crises of the 1970's tells me that you would not need another 5000 staff. The speed limit there was set at 90 km/h with a 10 km/h leeway (to accomodate measurement error etc). The result was traffic moving at a steady 99 km/h.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by koppie »

We're half a year into this. I would like to make a few observations. First of all, the total road usage has gone down off course, but this mostly impact the roads with the 100 km/h before the lowered speedlimit.

The average speed has certainly gone down. If I drive 100 on the meter (97) most people pass me, but the speed difference is relative minimal. Average speed is indeed 105-110. More to the northern parts the speeds creep up, maybe because the distances are bigger. When it was 130 the average was just under that.

For a 2 months the number of speedchecks are back to pre-corona levels, so I watch the app, and watch out at the usual suspect places.

It's hard to judge, but there is a certain level of resignation. It's what it is. I still have a problem with the pricing of a speedticket, 26 euro for 4 km/h, 66 euro's for 10 km/h, going up very fast. In the olden days in the 80's there was a much bigger leeway, sometimes 20 km/h and above as a start for a speeding ticket. So people who are reminiscing about that time, are forgetting that the average speeds were much and much higher, because the change of being caught till 120-125 was nihil.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Truvelo »

4 km/h over the limit for a speeding ticket is not very generous. Being penalised for doing 104 on a rural motorway seems unduly harsh.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Eek, now I'm worried. I had to drive a little faster than 100 to get to the ferry terminal at Hoek last week (lots of roadworks in Germany - and of course the SatNav was giving an ETA based on the old limits so got in a panic). Was doing about 105 to 110 on the SatNav where I was able to, wasn't the fastest on the roads... but certainly quicker than the majority.

The only thing I could really notice with the new limit is it seemed to cause people to drive a lot closer to each other. On the drive out towards Sweden I had just missed out on the lower limit times but was just inside the rush hour (about 6pm), and yet it felt a lot more comfortable a drive.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:09 So the Dutch are the first country since the 1979 energy crisis to reduce speed limits. I often wonder if states in America like California and Vermont, which have a strong green/left presence, are thinking if the hated 55 mph speed limit could be reintroduced now that states can set their own speed limit again.
Vermont is a rather rural area with relatively few freeways and large cities and has relatively low speed limits of 65 mph on rural freeways, 55 mph on urban freeways, 50 mph on other rural roads and 25 mph pm other roads. It is larger than Wales but has a population of under a million so its not exactly crowded. It is also rather rather hilly with the highest elevation being just over 4000 ft. It is VERY rural, the largest city has a population of around 40,000. Its all rather laid back and the people who live there like it that way.

California is a much larger state , 800 miles long and 200 miles long, it is made up of 3 rather distinctive areas.
North of I 80 its rural, heavily forested and pretty conservative and the main industries are farming, forestry and tourism.

From the Bay Area to San Diego California the coastal strip is heavily industrialised and densely populated by US standards. West of the coastal ranges in the south its also have some forested areas in the National Parks but lying between them is the Central Valley which is a major area dominated by industrial scale farming. The result is a much greater dependence on efficient transport so it has speed limits rather similar to those in the UK of 70 mph on rural freeways, 65 mph on urban freeways and divided highways and a 30 mph limit on residential roads.

States have been setting there own speed limits for at least 30 years. If you want to see fast (and dangerous) driving head to Montana. The highest speed limit is 75 but nobody takes that too seriously and its very sparsely populated with relatively little speed enforcement. The population of the state is about 1 million but it had 184 highway fatalities last year. If the UK had a similar death rate we would be looking 1200 fatalities per annum. More than two-thirds of the fatal crashes involved a single vehicle and loss of control. The State Highway Patrol has around 230 officers to patrol an area larger than the UK.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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Montana speed limits are now 80mph I believe, alongside Nevada and Utah. I understand Texas has one freeway with an 85mph limit. Notably, the limits in at least Nevada and Utah are, I believe, the same for HGVs. (California on the other hand has a 70mph maximum for cars, but 55mph for trucks, and states like Oregon and Washington have explicit 60/65mph truck limits.)

Montana previously had no signed speed limit on “unrestricted” roads, the law simply stating that you should not exceed a speed that is “reasonable and prudent”. Of course that would very much be up to an individual (or police officer’s) interpretation...
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by koppie »

Truvelo wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 21:52 4 km/h over the limit for a speeding ticket is not very generous. Being penalised for doing 104 on a rural motorway seems unduly harsh.
There is a correction before that, but it's only 2 or 3 km/h. And not guaranteed, because that can be the deviation of the radar equipment. So I don't try to use that leeway.
ravenbluemoon wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 01:27 Eek, now I'm worried. I had to drive a little faster than 100 to get to the ferry terminal at Hoek last week (lots of roadworks in Germany - and of course the SatNav was giving an ETA based on the old limits so got in a panic). Was doing about 105 to 110 on the SatNav where I was able to, wasn't the fastest on the roads... but certainly quicker than the majority.
You're probably all-right. Only on the A20 with the max speedlimit on the signs above just around Rotterdam-centrum there is a Trajectcontrole (SPECS). The same at Utrecht, but probably you went A20-A4-A15-A50-A12? And completely missed this. But the number of 'normal' speedtraps aren't that big. And the trajectcontrole are mostly on places which are very difficult to drive fast.
ravenbluemoon wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 01:27 The only thing I could really notice with the new limit is it seemed to cause people to drive a lot closer to each other. On the drive out towards Sweden I had just missed out on the lower limit times but was just inside the rush hour (about 6pm), and yet it felt a lot more comfortable a drive.
I've a complete theory about this, mostly it keeps the road moving, better than you would've expected. We've D2M's with 90.000+ mvt without big holdups. The number of HGV's are a big factor off course.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by ravenbluemoon »

koppie wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:27 You're probably all-right. Only on the A20 with the max speedlimit on the signs above just around Rotterdam-centrum there is a Trajectcontrole (SPECS). The same at Utrecht, but probably you went A20-A4-A15-A50-A12? And completely missed this. But the number of 'normal' speedtraps aren't that big. And the trajectcontrole are mostly on places which are very difficult to drive fast.
Ah ok, I came in from the Osnabruck area, so A1-A28-A27-A12-A20 (going out I went via Amsterdam and Groningen, then on to Bremen, but it was off peak). I did notice the trajectcontrole signs around Rotterdam, but as you say it wasn't easy to go fast along that section.
koppie wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:27
ravenbluemoon wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 01:27 The only thing I could really notice with the new limit is it seemed to cause people to drive a lot closer to each other. On the drive out towards Sweden I had just missed out on the lower limit times but was just inside the rush hour (about 6pm), and yet it felt a lot more comfortable a drive.
I've a complete theory about this, mostly it keeps the road moving, better than you would've expected. We've D2M's with 90.000+ mvt without big holdups. The number of HGV's are a big factor off course.
You could be right. It was busy, but not start/stop traffic (except at Amersfoort where I had to turn onto the A28) - I think it is very much the same on our M1 between J28 and Sheffield. Before the variable speed limits were installed it was always stop/start during the daytime. Now with the extra lane and a near permanent 60 limit during the day, it is so much more smooth and reliable. I didn't notice if you had HGV overtaking bans during the daytime, that seemed to make a lot of difference in Germany and Denmark.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 13:23 The population of the state is about 1 million but it had 184 highway fatalities last year. If the UK had a similar death rate we would be looking 1200 fatalities per annum. More than two-thirds of the fatal crashes involved a single vehicle and loss of control. The State Highway Patrol has around 230 officers to patrol an area larger than the UK.
1200 road deaths per year is a bit lower than the UK rate (we've been at or around 1,800 for the last 4 years). I think you meant to say that "If the UK had a similar death rate we would be looking at 12,000 fatalities per annum", which, as you infer, would be absolute carnage.
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Re: Dutch 100 km/h speed limit

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ravenbluemoon wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 19:17
koppie wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:27 You're probably all-right. Only on the A20 with the max speedlimit on the signs above just around Rotterdam-centrum there is a Trajectcontrole (SPECS). The same at Utrecht, but probably you went A20-A4-A15-A50-A12? And completely missed this. But the number of 'normal' speedtraps aren't that big. And the trajectcontrole are mostly on places which are very difficult to drive fast.
Ah ok, I came in from the Osnabruck area, so A1-A28-A27-A12-A20 (going out I went via Amsterdam and Groningen, then on to Bremen, but it was off peak). I did notice the trajectcontrole signs around Rotterdam, but as you say it wasn't easy to go fast along that section.
I drove from Hoek van Holland to Kiel in April 2019 and got a ticket for doing 56 in a 50 limit in Groningen (I'm not sure whether I was on the through route or not at the time). The ticket was for 56 EUR, of which IIRC 8 EUR was some kind of administrative charge applied for overseas drivers (translating the letter into Swedish, for a start!). On the other hand, I neither saw any enforcement nor received any tickets on any of the proper motorway stretches, though if the limit was 130 then I probably didn't reach it to begin with.

Personally I would like to see an approach to speeding fines that is much better anchored in the actual assessment of the danger posed by the behaviour being punished. What is a speeding fine of 50 EUR, never mind less than that, actually saying to your average driver? Basically, it's saying "You had the temerity to disobey what we told you to do, so we're going to tax you for it." It is most emphatically *not* saying "This behaviour is dangerous and may kill someone. You need to change your habits NOW." You need to add a zero for the fine to say that. On the other hand, the nature of many speed enforcement actions is not especially rooted in direct evidence that the specific contravention was dangerous and likely to kill someone, so giving everyone who goes through a camera at 10 km/h over the limit a 500 EUR fine would indeed be excessive. I would therefore far rather see fines that really matter in cases where the speeding really matters, and both less micromanagement of limits, fewer oddly low limits, and less arbitrary enforcement in cases where the speeding is of little import.
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