Road signs painted on roads.

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scragend
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by scragend »

In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
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Stevie D
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Stevie D »

EpicChef wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 16:48 I wonder whether we could get variable speed / lane control signals embedded into the road - there would be less clutter from overhead signals, and only large variable message signs would need to be mounted overhead.
No, no, no and no.

Markings on the road are a poor substitute for upright signage, as has already been said upthread. They can be hard to read in poor weather, they are only visible from a short distance, they are more prone to being worn away, they can more easily be obscured by the vehicle in front until you are very close to them. And if you are looking at electronic variable messaging then you are looking at embedding complex technology into the road, which makes it more vulnerable to wear and damage from passing traffic, and much harder to install, maintain and upgrade than a standing or gantry sign.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Kaasdrager »

scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by FosseWay »

^^ The same distinction applies in Swedish - "linjebuss" or "buss i linjetrafik" is a standard public transport bus, whereas "buss" means any conveyance you need a PSV licence to drive, regardless of the purpose it's being used for. That said, it is unusual for bus lanes alongside normal running lanes to make this distinction. Where you tend to get differences is on roads with tank traps in them that allow wide-wheelbase vehicles through but not cars. Although there wouldn't be anything to physically stop a tourist coach driving through, the signs generally have a "no motorbike stunts" sign and a plate reading "Gäller ej buss i linjetrafik" (Except for local buses).
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by AndyB »

Many languages do use the "noun adjective" word order, including French and Irish. To determine a convention, you need to find a "verb object" pair - so "Reduce" then "speed" as you drive over or "Reduce speed" as a block where you go over "speed" first.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by scragend »

Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02
scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Ah I see. Thank you!
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by FleetlinePhil »

scragend wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 00:25
Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02
scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Ah I see. Thank you!
Are you aware that in Flanders, the state-owned operator providing all bus and tram services is known as De Lijn, taking its name from the definition provided by Kaasdrager above?

In effect, this would mean any "Lijn Bus" marked bus lane in Flanders is pretty much limited to their vehicles and could perhaps be thought of as "De Lijn Bus" lanes, although I recall there are joint operations in from the Netherlands in border areas, so perhaps there will be some exceptions.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by scragend »

FleetlinePhil wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:16 Are you aware that in Flanders, the state-owned operator providing all bus and tram services is known as De Lijn, taking its name from the definition provided by Kaasdrager above?

In effect, this would mean any "Lijn Bus" marked bus lane in Flanders is pretty much limited to their vehicles and could perhaps be thought of as "De Lijn Bus" lanes, although I recall there are joint operations in from the Netherlands in border areas, so perhaps there will be some exceptions.
I am. But it isn't unusual in language for a word to have more than one meaning - "lijn" could have meant "line" as in a bus of the line, while also meaning "lane" as in a bus lane. I know a small amount of Dutch but by no means fluent so it could have been a double meaning that I wasn't aware of but, as Kaasdrager explained, that isn't the case - fair enough. I now know of the concept of a "lijnbus", so my knowledge is enriched.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Peter350 »

Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02
scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Also has anyone noticed that the I and J in that example look like they have been put together to form a letter U, therefore reading as "LUN BUS"?
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Big L »

Peter350 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 15:59
Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02
scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Also has anyone noticed that the I and J in that example look like they have been put together to form a letter U, therefore reading as "LUN BUS"?
IJ *is* a letter in Dutch. Flemish (from Flanders) is very closely related to Dutch.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Chris Bertram »

Big L wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 18:44
Peter350 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 15:59
Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02 Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Also has anyone noticed that the I and J in that example look like they have been put together to form a letter U, therefore reading as "LUN BUS"?
IJ *is* a letter in Dutch. Flemish (from Flanders) is very closely related to Dutch.
Flemish *is* Dutch, with a few differences in local usage. This sometimes includes how IJ is capitalised other than in all caps situations; Dutch insists on IJ, Flemish can cope with Ij.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Chris Bertram »

Anyway, today her and me went to Minchinhampton Common, just south of Stroud. It's a traditional common with livestock grazing rights for commoners, and is a defined 40mph zone. So to reduce clutter from vertical signage, there are 40 roundels painted on the roads, plus cattle triangles. All due to the National Trust, no doubt. There were plenty of cattle and horses on the common today, plus golfers playing the 18 hole course, which makes up for the lack of bunkers and water hazards by having a lot of poor sight lines and prehistoric earthworks for your wayward shots to end up in.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by orudge »

I remember being utterly perplexed the first time I was in the US (California to be precise) - I kept seeing:

XING
PED

written on the roads and couldn't for the life of me work out what it meant. Eventually I twigged that it was actually warning of a pedestrian crossing.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by RichardA626 »

orudge wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 21:00 I remember being utterly perplexed the first time I was in the US (California to be precise) - I kept seeing:

XING
PED

written on the roads and couldn't for the life of me work out what it meant. Eventually I twigged that it was actually warning of a pedestrian crossing.
I remember seeing it in Florida on signs as Ped Xing & thought it was someone of Chinese origin at first.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Vierwielen »

Peter350 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 15:59
Kaasdrager wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02
scragend wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 17:14 In Belgium (Flanders), bus lanes are marked on the road as:

LIJN
BUS

I don't know which way round this is - is the Dutch for "bus lane", "Lijn Bus", or "Bus Lijn"?
Neither - a lijnbus is a public transport bus, as opposed to e.g. a bus (coach?) rented by a travel agency to bring tourists to the beach. I can't speak for Flanders, but in the Netherlands you will either see 'lijnbus' or 'bus' written on the pavement. 'Bus' then allows all buses to drive in that lane, while 'lijnbus' only allows public transport buses.

This location has a 'lijnbus' lane, but after taking the left turn it become a regular 'bus' lane.
Also has anyone noticed that the I and J in that example look like they have been put together to form a letter U, therefore reading as "LUN BUS"?
When "i" and "j" follow each other in Dutch, they are actually a regarded as a single letter which is sometimes represented by "y" and when lists are sorted alphabetically, "ij" is the penultimate letter of the alphabet - see here. The "ij" construction is unknown in Afrikaans (a language derived from Dutch), but many Dutch words that have "ij" can be "translated" into Afrikaans by replacing the "ij" with "y" - for example "lijn" => "lyn".
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by RichardA626 »

Ÿ can be used in place of a IJ.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%BF
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Chris5156 »

EpicChef wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:11
scragend wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 17:19So not this then?
I’d say by all means have that sign, but have it as a fixed plate on the side of the road.
I'd say the road marking is a worthless distraction and a vertical sign saying the same thing would be equally worthless and distracting. By all means make a gesture to key workers during a global pandemic, but not in a way that risks distracting people who are trying to control two tons of fast moving metalwork.
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by exiled »

RichardA626 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:02 Ÿ can be used in place of a IJ.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%BF
'y' often turns up instead of ij in old documents and google translate reads it as a 'ij' for translation. Other words need to be checked.

Back to topic the Avenida de Principe de Asturias in La Linea uses

TAR
GIBRAL
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by FosseWay »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 20:10 Anyway, today her and me went to Minchinhampton Common, just south of Stroud. It's a traditional common with livestock grazing rights for commoners, and is a defined 40mph zone. So to reduce clutter from vertical signage, there are 40 roundels painted on the roads, plus cattle triangles. All due to the National Trust, no doubt. There were plenty of cattle and horses on the common today, plus golfers playing the 18 hole course, which makes up for the lack of bunkers and water hazards by having a lot of poor sight lines and prehistoric earthworks for your wayward shots to end up in.
I used to live in Stroud and know the common well. Collisions between vehicles and livestock were unfortunately common; it was the reason for the 40 limit, which was introduced around the turn of the century. When I first moved there, you could in theory do 60 all over it apart from through the 30 limits around Rodborough and Amberley.

There was a brief trial of putting fluorescent and reflective tabards on the cows themselves, often with appropriate messages (either a 40 roundel or the slogan in use at the time: Moove slowly on the Common). Evidently this didn't work or had some disadvantage, as it was not continued. I'm not sure what TSRGD would have to say about speed limit signs that move randomly around the area!
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Re: Road signs painted on roads.

Post by Bfivethousand »

scragend wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 17:19
EpicChef wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 15:22 I think only essential messages should be painted on roads, where there is a risk to safety if normal signs can’t be seen eg obscured by HGVs
So not this then?

Image

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All I see there is the biker losing control in the rain whilst trying to avoid the pedestrian using the crossing facility.
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