I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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Bryn666
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 20:50 Step back from the discussion about which of these three motorway routes is the best and look at the big picture about what this says about infrastructure investment in Germany.

How many even vaguely comparable journeys are there in the UK which offer three separate, all pretty decent motorway-all-the-way options?
We don't really have any regions as heavily built up in the same way, but the north west is the only area of the UK that comes remotely close to having any kind of network where you can jump to other routes in a crisis, but it's not all motorway, and it has agonisingly bad weak points.

The German network is, of course, eclipsed entirely by the Spanish system these days.
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:05
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 20:50 Step back from the discussion about which of these three motorway routes is the best and look at the big picture about what this says about infrastructure investment in Germany.

How many even vaguely comparable journeys are there in the UK which offer three separate, all pretty decent motorway-all-the-way options?
We don't really have any regions as heavily built up in the same way, but the north west is the only area of the UK that comes remotely close to having any kind of network where you can jump to other routes in a crisis, but it's not all motorway, and it has agonisingly bad weak points.

The German network is, of course, eclipsed entirely by the Spanish system these days.
Yes. Parts of the Spanish system are spectacular. I remember once negotiating the Madrid network in a BMW with an early sat nav that only had an arrow display rather than maps, with which it was quite easy to miss your turning because of the ambiguity of the instructions. It made almost no difference because there were so many different rings/radials/route permutations that the nav could get you back on course almost immediately.

Barcelona and its surroundings are magnificently well served as well.

A slightly different experience - I once drove back to the UK from near Gibraltar, heading north on autovias through southern Spain's mountains and near-deserts. These roads have some compromises on standards compared with the best/most modern routes but are nevertheless pretty decent considering the terrain and traffic volumes. Absolutely unforgettable and an experience I long to repeat once lockdown ends!
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:19
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:05
roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 20:50 Step back from the discussion about which of these three motorway routes is the best and look at the big picture about what this says about infrastructure investment in Germany.

How many even vaguely comparable journeys are there in the UK which offer three separate, all pretty decent motorway-all-the-way options?
We don't really have any regions as heavily built up in the same way, but the north west is the only area of the UK that comes remotely close to having any kind of network where you can jump to other routes in a crisis, but it's not all motorway, and it has agonisingly bad weak points.

The German network is, of course, eclipsed entirely by the Spanish system these days.
Yes. Parts of the Spanish system are spectacular. I remember once negotiating the Madrid network in a BMW with an early sat nav that only had an arrow display rather than maps, with which it was quite easy to miss your turning because of the ambiguity of the instructions. It made almost no difference because there were so many different rings/radials/route permutations that the nav could get you back on course almost immediately.

Barcelona and its surroundings are magnificently well served as well.

A slightly different experience - I once drove back to the UK from near Gibraltar, heading north on autovias through southern Spain's mountains and near-deserts. These roads have some compromises on standards compared with the best/most modern routes but are nevertheless pretty decent considering the terrain and traffic volumes. Absolutely unforgettable and an experience I long to repeat once lockdown ends!
It's also very interesting, and telling, that these countries have stricter views on pollution (look at all the clean air zones, etc) but still understand the safety and economic value of good roads. We use climate change as an excuse to not do anything, as per usual. British mediocrity, fudge, and indecision with a perfect excuse.
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:25 It's also very interesting, and telling, that these countries have stricter views on pollution (look at all the clean air zones, etc) but still understand the safety and economic value of good roads. We use climate change as an excuse to not do anything, as per usual. British mediocrity, fudge, and indecision with a perfect excuse.
Yes. Germany has a fantastic network but there is a near-total ban on trucks using it on Sundays and public holidays. Imagine trying to get that through in the UK.
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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roadtester wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:58
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 21:25 It's also very interesting, and telling, that these countries have stricter views on pollution (look at all the clean air zones, etc) but still understand the safety and economic value of good roads. We use climate change as an excuse to not do anything, as per usual. British mediocrity, fudge, and indecision with a perfect excuse.
Yes. Germany has a fantastic network but there is a near-total ban on trucks using it on Sundays and public holidays. Imagine trying to get that through in the UK.
And there are also heavy tolls on trucks using it. I think Belgium is the same now with Viapass?
Bryn
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

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jackal wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 17:05
roadtester wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 15:59 Other US cities have looked at options like dismantling, bypassing or burying these sorts of routes so that they don't scar communities by dividing them with acres of concrete but none of that sort of thinking seems to have permeated the mindset of the Texans!
One or two local distributors/loops have been dismantled but they're not 'these sorts of routes'. For major I-xx through routes the only solution that has been used in the US so far as I know is to add capacity, whether through widening, additional freeways, or both. 'Burying' is an atypical form of widening in the cases I'm aware of (e.g., Boston Big Dig and I-635 Dallas).
True, plus in the San Francisco area and Seattle earthquakes played a large role. Either an earthquake damaged urban freeways or more modern analysis revealed urban freeway structures were at an unacceptable risk of collapse should there be an earthquake. Most of the fatalities in the Loma Prieta earthquake occurred when double deck freeway structures collapsed.

But people tend to generalise from these specific examples and try to apply them to totally different conditions. Eg any general discussion of Cape Town's foreshore freeway will have some comparison with the removed Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco, just because they both are/were elevated freeways between city centres and a harbour. Never mind that the Embarcadero is an attractive recreational harbourside open to the public while the port of Cape Town is an industrial container port behind security fencing.
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

Post by M50Jct15 »

c2R wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 14:43

No, it's what most of the world does... It's madness to drive the shortest route despite there being a myriad of junctions and a massive urban centre in the way or to build roads for strategic traffic next to where people live.

Did you know that it is 33% further to travel round Dublin on the M50 than it is to go through the centre... however, nobody in their right mind would do that.
As a native Dubliner, I can vouch for that!

Despite the 33% extra distance, you can go from the south of the M50 to the Airport in about 30 minutes; if you used the direct routes you'd be lucky to make it inside 90 minutes. it's like driving into a swamp...
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

Post by Vierwielen »

M50Jct15 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 21:17
c2R wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 14:43

No, it's what most of the world does... It's madness to drive the shortest route despite there being a myriad of junctions and a massive urban centre in the way or to build roads for strategic traffic next to where people live.

Did you know that it is 33% further to travel round Dublin on the M50 than it is to go through the centre... however, nobody in their right mind would do that.
As a native Dubliner, I can vouch for that!

Despite the 33% extra distance, you can go from the south of the M50 to the Airport in about 30 minutes; if you used the direct routes you'd be lucky to make it inside 90 minutes. it's like driving into a swamp...
... and the stop-start will probably chew up more fuel than going around the long way (except possibly at 05:00 hrs on a Sunday morning).
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Re: I-35 - 20 lanes wide through downtown Austin, TX

Post by Peter Freeman »

jackal wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 19:45 ... For all the incredible highway construction in Texas they don't really do bores - perhaps they wouldn't get the 'Texan discount' that surface freeways do.
I think the reason is geology.

Much of Texas (esp. around Austin and San Antonio, where I used to go caving) is a 'karst' landscape (limestone, riddled with shallow caves). Most of the rest, eg. Houston, is close to sea level, unconsolidated, swampy and flood-prone. Both of these environments would be tunnel-unfriendly (though not impossible).

Much of the Gulf Coast, and Florida, is similar. In contrast, most of Sydney's sandstone-ish geology is very tunnel-friendly. Hence it has more tunnels.
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